|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 30, 2009 11:08:34 GMT -8
With the Exposition Blvd LRT opening in the fall of 2010, we need a name for the line, and we need public opinion on the name.
The line was first built in 1875 as a narrow-gauge (3' 6") steam railroad with the name "The Los Angeles & Independence Railroad." For most of the history, it was known as "Pacific Electric Railway Santa Monica Air Line." It was also referred to as "Santa Monica Branch" on Southern Pacific timetables.
Exposition Blvd, the frontage road that runs irregularly by the railroad right-of-way, was originally named Santa Monica Ave. Later, when the fair grounds by Figureoa became Exposition Park, it was named Exposition Blvd. Therefore, "Expo" was coined from Exposition Blvd, which was named after Exposition Park.
The color "Aqua" first surfaced when some militant green group placed "Metro Aqua Line" signs throughout the Westside to stir NIMBYs. I don't know if the group did this in collobaration with Friends 4 Expo, as I wasn't involved back then. Later Friends 4 Expo advocated this color and it was adopted by two Westside neighborhood councils and Metro staff.
Bernard Parks wasn't sure about "aqua" and asked public opinion at a meeting. There was no consensus; although, many people seemed to like aqua. I suggested to him in public at that meeting that the line is named "Expo" to respect the name of Exposition Blvd that connects the neighborhoods and has a history but is shown by aqua on the maps. He later put forward a motion naming the line Expo but showing it with the color rose, after Rose Garden. One motion after another, the final motion named the line "Metro Expo Line" and deferred the color issue to the future, after more public input is sought.
So, place your vote! Note that you can choose as many names or colors as you want.
|
|
|
Post by erict on Apr 30, 2009 11:36:55 GMT -8
I heart Aqua Line...but if it is Expo it's no big deal.
|
|
|
Post by kenalpern on Apr 30, 2009 12:14:27 GMT -8
The bottom line is that it's the Aqua Line!
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 30, 2009 12:19:54 GMT -8
Aqua LĂnea
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Apr 30, 2009 16:38:28 GMT -8
La Linea Del Mar!
Or maybe The Ocean Line! How 'bout the Bluish Line?
|
|
|
Post by stuckintraffic on Apr 30, 2009 17:11:27 GMT -8
Doesn't really matter. When the downtown connector is completed, it'll just become either blue or gold. So whatever is chosen now won't last for long...
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 30, 2009 17:41:20 GMT -8
Doesn't really matter. When the downtown connector is completed, it'll just become either blue or gold. So whatever is chosen now won't last for long... Not quite correct, actually. When the Downtown Connector is built, the trains will be named according to the destination branch. Colors or names will not change at all otherwise. The only thing that will be needed is a color or name for the Gold Line Eastside extension, which will be a separate line after the connector. Oh, wait, we already have a name for that: la LĂnea de Oro, Edward R. Roybal. My bad.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 30, 2009 18:30:00 GMT -8
Do you have a bigger version of that image?
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 30, 2009 18:48:50 GMT -8
Do you have a bigger version of that image? Yes, this is something I drew more than a year ago: Downtown Connector track systemIt's not quite accurate because (a) the connector will be double-track, not quad-track, and (b) the connection to the Gold/Eastside Lines will happen to the south of the Little Tokyo Station, not to the north. But the whole coloring/naming idea is the same: color/name the lines according to the destination branch. This way one is not restricted to only two routes. In fact, there may be many routes. See the following map for the precise location of the Downtown Connector route and stations: Metro Rail most up-to-date map
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 30, 2009 19:07:44 GMT -8
Yeah. I don't see why some Expo trains can't go to Pasadena.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 30, 2009 19:34:09 GMT -8
Everything is pointing to only two routes if you look at the presentations and discussions on the Metro site. They will be Pasadena/Long Beach and Santa Monica/East LA. Also Metro has mentioned many times that they are looking at naming lines by either number or letter instead of color (although the maps will still have colors). Whether they actually will remains to be seen, but I don't see how you can say emphatically that they won't.
|
|
|
Post by James Fujita on Apr 30, 2009 20:02:36 GMT -8
I've always liked Aqua. I remember the Aqua Line guerilla art sign project, and the name made sense. Aqua is very similar to blue, and of course the Aqua Line will share tracks (downtown, at least) with the Blue Line.
I'm not crazy about letters or numbers, but that's just my personal preference. every city I've been to, other than NYC, used either blue, red, green, etc. or they used geographic names.
I predict that people will continue to call the Blue Line the Blue Line and so forth. why? because my mom still calls Rite-Aid Thrifty because that's what it was when she moved to California, and also because they still sell Thrifty brand ice cream there.
as long as the maps are color-coded, people will call them by the map colors, especially those who have been around long enough to remember red, blue, gold, green.
|
|
|
Post by losangeles2319 on Apr 30, 2009 20:36:20 GMT -8
My vote is for Aqua but as for that map(the first one) it made me think... When they build this are they going to rebuild, and by rebuild I mean put below grade, the Pico Station?
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 30, 2009 20:44:04 GMT -8
Numbers and letters are much easier if you don't speak the language. Colors are okay although you still need a key and even then people may misidentify lines. For example someone unfamiliar with the system that knows that they need to take "Aqua" could mistakenly get on the blue line if they weren't careful. Of course people can always make mistakes or do something stupid, but letters, numbers, or destinations would make it less likely.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 30, 2009 21:00:36 GMT -8
The Aqua Line becomes a proper noun just like the Blue Line is.
I went to Japan and I didn't need to know Japanese to navigate their behemoth rail network. I didn't get lost once. I didn't have to know that Yamanote means "foothills" to find and ride the Yamanote Line.
And that in essence is the reason why the Gloria Molina Gold Line Spanish name nonsense was so retarded.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 30, 2009 21:43:54 GMT -8
I went to Japan and I didn't need to know Japanese to navigate their behemoth rail network. I didn't get lost once. I didn't have to know that Yamanote means "foothills" to find and ride the Yamanote Line.
lol. Aren't their trains color coded to match the line name? Don't they use both English and Japanese characters? Isn't English prevalent within their system? That was hardly a feat on your part.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 30, 2009 21:45:25 GMT -8
Romaji is, yes. That was hardly a feat on your part. Yeah, and it won't be a feat for Spanish speaking residents not to confuse the Aqua Line and the Blue Line.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Apr 30, 2009 22:11:55 GMT -8
Everything is pointing to only two routes if you look at the presentations and discussions on the Metro site. They will be Pasadena/Long Beach and Santa Monica/East LA. Also Metro has mentioned many times that they are looking at naming lines by either number or letter instead of color (although the maps will still have colors). Whether they actually will remains to be seen, but I don't see how you can say emphatically that they won't. Metro Rail lines already have numbers: 801 - 805 -- Blue - Purple, through historical order. Eastside and Expo should be 806 and 807, respectively. From a system point of view, the Downtown Connector is being built to accommodate all possible routes. From an operational point of view, Metro has stated that they are thinking of first starting with Expo - Eastside and Blue - Gold and later including other routes.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Apr 30, 2009 22:36:16 GMT -8
Yes they already have numbers but Metro has said that they are considering converting the current color naming system to a system that uses letters or numbers. I doubt that they would keep those numbers. And I don't understand how you know that they won't when they have indicated many times that they likely will.
I haven't seen where they have said that they are considering other routes outside of this forum, but that would be cool. Maybe unnecessarily difficult, but still cool.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on Apr 30, 2009 22:56:33 GMT -8
What makes it difficult?
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Apr 30, 2009 23:28:04 GMT -8
The color "Aqua" first surfaced when some militant green group placed "Metro Aqua Line" signs throughout the Westside to stir NIMBYs. I don't know if the group did this in collobaration with Friends 4 Expo, as I wasn't involved back then. Later Friends 4 Expo advocated this color and it was adopted by two Westside neighborhood councils and Metro staff. Here's my recollection: * I was calling it EXPORAIL in 1991. I started using yellow for the name and line on the map in 1993, once I had access to a color printer, because I liked the energy of the color. * In 1999 I drew the line on the map in blue, and coined the subhead " The Westside Blue Line" to relate it to what was then called the Pasadena Blue Line. Light blue looked good. * The Final EIS/EIR used an aqua-green color as its unofficial color for Expo. Metro staff's proposed color followed this, suggesting it officially be the Aqua Line. Which also tied back to the Heavy Trash "Metro Aqua Line" sign boards along San Vicente in Santa Monica and Brentwood (no connection to us). Most of us liked the proposal, a good color for a branch of the Blue Line to the ocean in Santa Monica. * The interim compromise of " Expo Line" was ironically what Friends 4 Expo Transit had been calling it since 2000.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on Apr 30, 2009 23:35:30 GMT -8
Metro Rail lines already have numbers: 801 - 805 -- Blue - Purple, through historical order. Eastside and Expo should be 806 and 807, respectively. Why would the Eastside have a different number? Why is the Gold Line from Pasadena to East LA not still referred to as Train # 804? That's like the MTA having the 720 from Santa Monica to downtown, and a different number assigned from the downtown to Whittier segment (i.e. 721); when it's the same darn line.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on May 1, 2009 0:12:03 GMT -8
Metro Rail lines already have numbers: 801 - 805 -- Blue - Purple, through historical order. Eastside and Expo should be 806 and 807, respectively. Why would the Eastside have a different number? Why is the Gold Line from Pasadena to East LA not still referred to as Train # 804? That's like the MTA having the 720 from Santa Monica to downtown, and a different number assigned from the downtown to Whittier segment (i.e. 721); when it's the same darn line. The only reason they are the same "darn" line is because Downtown Connector doesn't exist yet. Once Downtown Connector is built, they are the lines that are least likely to be connected; so, they will be known with different names, numbers, even colors. I don't know when this will happen; so, I won't guarantee that la LĂnea de Oro, Edward R. Roybal, will be assigned 806 or some other number. Regarding an earlier comment by bluelineshawn, that was mentioned at a Downtown Connector meeting I believe that ultimately more routes will be considered. As you might guess, commitment to particular route before experimenting with the system makes no sense.
|
|
|
Post by wad on May 1, 2009 3:53:23 GMT -8
Why would the Eastside have a different number? Why is the Gold Line from Pasadena to East LA not still referred to as Train # 804? That's like the MTA having the 720 from Santa Monica to downtown, and a different number assigned from the downtown to Whittier segment (i.e. 721); when it's the same darn line. I think the Eastside Gold Line will be an extension of the Pasadena Gold Line, so in all likelihood it would keep 804. The three-digit line numbers are probably some strange artifact that has to do with Metro using the same data collection software as for bus lines.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on May 1, 2009 7:43:28 GMT -8
I've ranted about this before: the current color-naming system is fine for showing branches of track on a map, but less valuable identifying routing of trains. Colors carry with them meaning, including emotional connotations, and they can cause controversy. So every time the MTA wants to create a new route on existing track, they'll have to contend with controversies in each community served.
What most people care about is where they're going (destination) and how they're getting there (route).
The simple solution: use a letter to describe a route, and the name of the final stop for the destination name. Letters are shorter than names, and there are 26 of them.
Thus, the A train has one of two destinations: North Hollywood and Union Station. The passenger will have no confusion caused by language limitations or ability to distinguish colors.
As an added bonus, this naming scheme avoids ridiculous issues like "La Linea Del Oro etc.". The train running on the Eastside Extension tracks will simply be the F Line, headed to either Pasadena or East Los Angeles.
|
|
|
Post by JerardWright on May 1, 2009 8:44:05 GMT -8
Letters should be the primary mneomic to name the rail routes and main corridors from one main end to the other. They'll be labeled alphabetically for new routes unless the route follows a main arterial/named corridor for most of its route like W for Wilshire, E for Expo, V for Vermont, etc.
C o l o r should be secondary and that should only diagram how the route is carried on the map and to coordinate wayfinding and guides about the stations.
If I had my way with the rail network:
A = North Hollywood - Union Station (W) = Wilshire Corridor - Union Station B = Long Beach - Los Angeles C = Redondo Beach - Norwalk D = Pasadena - Los Angeles - East LA E = Exposition Corridor - Los Angeles
|
|
|
Post by masonite on May 1, 2009 9:21:51 GMT -8
Letters should be the primary mneomic to name the rail routes from one main end to the other. C o l o r should be secondary and that should only diagram how the route is carried on the map and to coordinate wayfinding and guides about the stations. If I had my way with the rail network:A = North Hollywood - Union Station (W) = Wilshire Corridor - Union Station B = Long Beach - Los Angeles C = Redondo Beach - Norwalk D = Pasadena - Los Angeles - East LA E = Exposition Corridor - Los Angeles I am not crazy about letters, although I see the ease in the use of it. Letters just seem so impersonal and generic, but I think I would support it if we tried to make the letters make sense. Also, it is a New York thing and I have seen the color system work well in DC and other places. Like I've said before, I like the London naming system the best (and they have the biggest and most complicated system in the world). For instance use P for the Pasadena Gold Line, E for Expo, H for Red Line (Hollywood), W for Purple Line (Wilshire), G for Green Line (why give it a different letter). Going down the alphabet doesn't make much sense.
|
|
|
Post by kenalpern on May 1, 2009 11:29:34 GMT -8
What about T for Transit Coalition? :oP
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on May 1, 2009 16:05:52 GMT -8
Romaji is, yes. That was hardly a feat on your part. Yeah, and it won't be a feat for Spanish speaking residents not to confuse the Aqua Line and the Blue Line. That's a whole different topic. I've been discussing English speaking riders. I'm sure that no matter what we did the very large majority of riders will be able to figure out where they're going, but if it can be made easier to navigate for everyone then I'm all for it. My opinion is that once you get past the basic colors, the use of colors becomes less effective. Aqua and blue, yellow and gold, etc. get confusing to differentiate for most people.
|
|
|
Post by billcousert on May 1, 2009 22:37:11 GMT -8
C for Colbert?
|
|