K 22
Full Member
Posts: 117
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Post by K 22 on Nov 30, 2010 11:01:40 GMT -8
I totally agree, put the gates in. If anything - it'll help further move away from the (dis)honor system.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 30, 2010 12:16:46 GMT -8
Most of you have probably seen this story. The fare evaders in Paris are now buying insurance that covers the cost of any ticket if they get caught: Insurance for Paris fare fraudstersMoney paid into a pot covers the fines for cheating the Paris subway
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Post by jamesinclair on Nov 30, 2010 14:23:11 GMT -8
Dang, that's a lot of wasted yen. You can argue the merits of turnstiles vs. fare gates, but as our expanding system grows and grows, you can't convince me that we can continue to successfully operate as a gateless system.. Yeah it is a waste of Yen. Who benefits from a gate/turnstile system? Only the company who makes and maintains them. Germany, Switzerland, Greece etc all have systems with zero gates. They work pretty damn well. I rather have a metro staffer providing fare checks + security AND getting paid to do it than some metal gate that provides fare checks ONLY and takes the money out of the state. You know what happens when you put a gate on farmdale or any other surface stop? People will walk on the tracks and climb onto the platform. Or even easier, just jump the damn thing. And since you have gates/turnstiles, you cut the staff that checks for fares, meaning its easier than ever to not pay (as you wont get caught) and there are less staff members looking for crime. Just because NYC or Tokyo does it doesnt mean it makes sense. It's very easy to lobby for gates. It's much harder to lobby for a competent staff that costs less and brings in more revenue because people see big shiny corporations as good and government employees as evil.
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 30, 2010 16:15:19 GMT -8
Most of you have probably seen this story. The fare evaders in Paris are now buying insurance that covers the cost of any ticket if they get caught: Insurance for Paris fare fraudstersMoney paid into a pot covers the fines for cheating the Paris subwaywow. so instead of just individual lawbreakers, we now have Organized Crime. Accomplices and a conspiracy. These people ought to be locked up.
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 30, 2010 16:26:17 GMT -8
Yeah it is a waste of Yen. Who benefits from a gate/turnstile system? Only the company who makes and maintains them. Germany, Switzerland, Greece etc all have systems with zero gates. They work pretty damn well. I rather have a metro staffer providing fare checks + security AND getting paid to do it than some metal gate that provides fare checks ONLY and takes the money out of the state. You know what happens when you put a gate on farmdale or any other surface stop? People will walk on the tracks and climb onto the platform. Or even easier, just jump the damn thing. And since you have gates/turnstiles, you cut the staff that checks for fares, meaning its easier than ever to not pay (as you wont get caught) and there are less staff members looking for crime. Just because NYC or Tokyo does it doesnt mean it makes sense. It's very easy to lobby for gates. It's much harder to lobby for a competent staff that costs less and brings in more revenue because people see big shiny corporations as good and government employees as evil. oh yeah, I forgot the big evil security companies. because all corporations are intrinsically evil much better to leave security to the nice, friendly folks at the LAPD or the Sheriffs, who absolutely won't treat Dorsey students like criminals. or the BART transit police, guaranteed not to shoot people ha ha.... all kidding aside, I see no reason why we can't have security officers and faregates. faregates to do the checking, security officers (with proper, nonlethal training) with their hands free to do other things. it's not like the Tokyo system is free of security officers, station attendants, clean up crews.... oh, and if somebody jumps the gate... automatically guilty. if they climb onto the tracks.... they're either guilty or they're dead. EDIT: Darwin Award nominees.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 30, 2010 16:59:50 GMT -8
Who benefits from a gate/turnstile system? Only the company who makes and maintains them. As a rider, I benefit from fare gates, because they allow me to quickly and readily identify lawbreakers from non-lawbreakers. Think there's no correlation between fare evasion and thefts, graffiti and other petty crimes? I think there is. Identifying risks is an important skill for people like me who grew up in the hood. You know what happens when you put a gate on farmdale or any other surface stop? People will walk on the tracks and climb onto the platform. Or even easier, just jump the damn thing. The only people walking on the tracks to climb onto the platform are criminals. These are not the poor: poor people in L.A. know they can qualify for discounted passes and fares. These are people too stupid or callous to realize that even with fare gates, the stations will be monitored by cameras and patrolled by fare checking security guards.
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Post by crzwdjk on Nov 30, 2010 19:30:15 GMT -8
Gates versus inspectors is yet another example of the tradeoff of capital vs. operating expenses, and which position is optimal depends on how many passengers you have as well as how expensive the turnstiles and fare inspectors are. And there definitely are downsides to fare inspectors: if you don't have the right ticket, the turnstile just won't let you in, whereas with a POP system, it's up to you to know and follow all the rules, which can get quite complicated in LA, as opposed to systems where the rule is "make sure you have a non-expired ticket for the zones you're traveling in", and tickets are sold for time periods ranging from 2 hours to 1 year. And in LA the penalty for breaking one of the many rules related to fare payment is a ticket for $250 payable only in person at the county jail (though I hear that last bit changed a couple years ago).
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 30, 2010 19:51:41 GMT -8
Gates, turnstiles, and even smart cards do make more sense in "distance based" systems.
In the Tokyo subway, there is no such thing as a transfer, you're expected to pay the whole price upfront, or pay at a "fare adjustment machine" as you exit. The gate lets you know if you haven't paid enough. And the Suica smart card takes all of the guesswork out of it. It knows how much to pay, even if you don't.
Los Angeles is a big city, and Metro Rail is getting bigger. Distance-based fares would be more equitable for rail riders and both turnstiles and TAP will facilitate that.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 1, 2010 22:56:18 GMT -8
oh yeah, I forgot the big evil security companies. because all corporations are intrinsically evil much better to leave security to the nice, friendly folks at the LAPD or the Sheriffs, who absolutely won't treat Dorsey students like criminals. or the BART transit police, guaranteed not to shoot people ha ha.... all kidding aside, I see no reason why we can't have security officers and faregates. faregates to do the checking, security officers (with proper, nonlethal training) with their hands free to do other things. it's not like the Tokyo system is free of security officers, station attendants, clean up crews.... oh, and if somebody jumps the gate... automatically guilty. if they climb onto the tracks.... they're either guilty or they're dead. EDIT: Darwin Award nominees. No, not all companies are evil. But if your mission as a company is to sell fare gates, then your job is tell tell transit agencies how wonderful your product is and how it will solve all the problems you may have. I dont see how walking on the tracks is worthy of a darwin award, considering you've just crossed them to get to the station. Making it up onto a 3 foot platform isnt exactly hard. And metrocenter, no I dont think knowing who paid and didnt pay makes your life any better. In fact, it may just make you more paranoid. Yes, I do believe in the broken window theory, but that doesnt mean that someone who jumps the turnstile is about to mug you.
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 15, 2010 16:44:09 GMT -8
Be sure to circle January 7 on your new 2011 calendars. That will be one year since FixExpo.org was last updated (before it was abandoned to spam Cialis ads). LOL
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 17, 2010 20:03:12 GMT -8
Be sure to circle January 7 on your new 2011 calendars. That will be one year since FixExpo.org was last updated (before it was abandoned to spam Cialis ads). LOL This is what is left of Fix Expo: Close-up: This is the fate of all NIMBYs. We are having the same made for Neighbors for Smart Rail to be erected at the Overland crossing.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 18, 2010 10:58:10 GMT -8
Well it's not what they/he wanted, but FixExpo did get a station added to Farmdale which in the long run will end up being a positive legacy.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 19, 2010 20:31:24 GMT -8
Well it's not what they/he wanted, but FixExpo did get a station added to Farmdale which in the long run will end up being a positive legacy. Yet, Fix Expo opposed the station, saying that it's even less safe than the original at-grade design. The station will be a good asset for the local community though. Fix Expo always represented a small minority, not the community itself.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 3, 2011 17:15:12 GMT -8
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 8, 2011 8:00:00 GMT -8
I found out at the Expo board meeting yesterday ( audio) that the Expo trains won't accelerate above 15 MPH until the whole train completely clears the intersection. This means there will be about 30 seconds after take-off before the train can go above 15 MPH. Then there is slowing down when you come to the station and the dwell at the station. Unfortunately we will have the Marmion Way situation for the Expo Line at Farmdale Avenue.
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Post by Philip on Apr 8, 2011 8:45:48 GMT -8
It sucks we have to deal with it now, but 20 years or so down the line, I would not be surprised if the Farmdale station is either 1) grade separated or 2) entirely abandoned. The latter seems more likely from my view; I'm not going off any facts or studies, but I cannot imagine ridership at this station is going to be very high.
Then again, once it's proven that the line is safe, hopefully the speed issues will go away with time.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 8, 2011 9:34:12 GMT -8
Unfortunately it's virtually impossible to make any changes at Farmdale in the future. The settlement agreement between Expo and LAUSD specifically dictated the 15 MPH limit and station access at all times, among other things. The agreement was also certified by CPUC. Neither the station nor the speed limit will go away during our lifetimes, as long as Dorsey High School doesn't go away.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Apr 8, 2011 10:11:33 GMT -8
It sucks we have to deal with it now, but 20 years or so down the line, I would not be surprised if the Farmdale station is either 1) grade separated or 2) entirely abandoned. The latter seems more likely from my view; I'm not going off any facts or studies, but I cannot imagine ridership at this station is going to be very high. Then again, once it's proven that the line is safe, hopefully the speed issues will go away with time. I think we have other stations that have more boarding issues than Farmdale. At least Farmdale is in a dense residential community. I worry more about some of our Gold Line stations with boarding...Southwest Museum, Pico/Aliso, Maravilla, etc... Those are horrible stations.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 8, 2011 10:13:43 GMT -8
Yes, let's at least hope that Farmdale Station will have decent boarding. Then it could make up for the slow-down. I met a few folks at Farmdale excited about and can't wait for the train.
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Post by thanks4goingmetro on Apr 8, 2011 14:52:01 GMT -8
This might be somewhat off-topic yet it is school-related, I wonder if Foshay Learning Academy will make use of its perfectly ok Exposition Blvd under-crossing? maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Foshay+Learning+Center,+South+Harvard+Boulevard,+Los+Angeles,+CA&aq=0&sll=34.052234,-118.243685&sspn=1.285686,1.790771&g=los+angeles&ie=UTF8&hq=Foshay+Learning+Center,&hnear=S+Harvard+Blvd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.018372,-118.306411&spn=0.0006,0.000874&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=34.018415,-118.306561&panoid=2qD1iZKRnunZW6Ie9vGMXw&cbp=12,342.35,,0,0.41
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Post by metrocenter on Apr 8, 2011 15:36:44 GMT -8
This might be somewhat off-topic yet it is school-related, I wonder if Foshay Learning Academy will make use of its perfectly ok Exposition Blvd under-crossing? maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Foshay+Learning+Center,+South+Harvard+Boulevard,+Los+Angeles,+CA&aq=0&sll=34.052234,-118.243685&sspn=1.285686,1.790771&g=los+angeles&ie=UTF8&hq=Foshay+Learning+Center,&hnear=S+Harvard+Blvd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.018372,-118.306411&spn=0.0006,0.000874&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=34.018415,-118.306561&panoid=2qD1iZKRnunZW6Ie9vGMXw&cbp=12,342.35,,0,0.41 Whether or not they will make use of the tunnel cannot be known at this time. But per the final decision, Expo was granted permission for train tracks to be built atop an existing pedestrian tunnel under Exposition Boulevard next to Foshay Learning Center, as long as it made improvements to the tunnel, including better lighting.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Apr 8, 2011 15:58:07 GMT -8
Unfortunately it's virtually impossible to make any changes at Farmdale in the future. The settlement agreement between Expo and LAUSD specifically dictated the 15 MPH limit and station access at all times, among other things. The agreement was also certified by CPUC. Neither the station nor the speed limit will go away during our lifetimes, as long as Dorsey High School doesn't go away. Does anyone recall at what point the 15 MPH limit starts and stops? If it's just across Farmdale, it seems unlikely anyone would notice.
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 8, 2011 17:39:58 GMT -8
Harvard Blvd pedestrian tunnel is used just before the school starts and just after the school ends. There is a voluntary parent who waits at one end of the tunnel and she/he locks the gates after about half hour. Nothing really will change with Expo, other than the school getting enhancements in the tunnel (video, radio, and lighting).
Farmdale Station speed limit starts at the platform (0 MPH) and ends once the tail of the train clears the far pedestrian crossing (15 MPH).
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Post by darrell on Apr 8, 2011 18:18:44 GMT -8
Farmdale Station speed limit starts at the platform (0 MPH) and ends once the tail of the train clears the far pedestrian crossing (15 MPH). Here's the actual text from the CPUC Final Decision (page 9, PDF, underline added): The now-proposed Farmdale station addresses directly the greatest risk for pedestrians – trains moving through the crossing at top speed – by mandating that each train come to a complete stop at the station and then proceed through the intersection. All trains going through the intersection will begin at zero miles per hour and only have about 110 feet in which to accelerate before the crossing is cleared. Automatic train protection shall be set on all light rail vehicles such that the vehicle will never exceed 15 miles per hour when the cab of the light rail vehicle is in the Farmdale crosswalk. The Farmdale station shall be constructed such that the rail vehicle operator will have a clear line of sight from the platform to the entire intersection, and the train will not leave the station until the operator has verified that the at-grade crossing is clear. In conjunction with the safety devices and signals for pedestrians and vehicles, the proposed Farmdale station substantially eliminates the risk of high speed collisions. This seems pretty clear, that it's only about the front of the train crossing at 15 mph.
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Post by spokker on Apr 8, 2011 18:48:27 GMT -8
I understand that many of you have decided to make lemons out of lemonade about Farmdale getting a station and are in fact hoping for the best, but it cannot be forgotten that there should not be a station at Farmdale in the first place. It's a purely political decision that results in worse service for the vast majority of Expo Line riders.
The station is not justified by the usual metrics used to justify stations and I hope that history is not altered to reflect otherwise.
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Post by roadtrainer on Apr 8, 2011 19:48:34 GMT -8
I am wondering if the students will feel the vibrations of the train going over the pedestrian tunnel? Sincerely
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Post by darrell on Apr 8, 2011 20:19:45 GMT -8
I am wondering if the students will feel the vibrations of the train going over the pedestrian tunnel? Sincerely The tracks are embedded in a pretty substantial "bridge" that was built over the existing pedestrian tunnel. Here are two construction photos: Above we see the CIDH (cast in drilled hole) pilings on both sides of the exposed top of the pedestrian tunnel (4/17/09). Below is the cap, finished except for the embedded rails (6/11/09). Ties went on the lower section on the left.
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Post by bobdavis on Apr 8, 2011 21:46:58 GMT -8
Regarding concerns about the pedestrian tunnel: Back in the PE/SP days, locomotives weighing over 100 tons, with relatively short truck centers ran over this spot. And properly mixed and placed concrete gets even harder with age. Oh well, gotta keep the worrywarts happy.
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Post by roadtrainer on Apr 9, 2011 6:28:39 GMT -8
???What :Pme worry Sincerely Thank You Alfred E. Newman!
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Post by Gokhan on Apr 9, 2011 10:36:47 GMT -8
Farmdale Station speed limit starts at the platform (0 MPH) and ends once the tail of the train clears the far pedestrian crossing (15 MPH). Here's the actual text from the CPUC Final Decision (page 9, PDF, underline added): The now-proposed Farmdale station addresses directly the greatest risk for pedestrians – trains moving through the crossing at top speed – by mandating that each train come to a complete stop at the station and then proceed through the intersection. All trains going through the intersection will begin at zero miles per hour and only have about 110 feet in which to accelerate before the crossing is cleared. Automatic train protection shall be set on all light rail vehicles such that the vehicle will never exceed 15 miles per hour when the cab of the light rail vehicle is in the Farmdale crosswalk. The Farmdale station shall be constructed such that the rail vehicle operator will have a clear line of sight from the platform to the entire intersection, and the train will not leave the station until the operator has verified that the at-grade crossing is clear. In conjunction with the safety devices and signals for pedestrians and vehicles, the proposed Farmdale station substantially eliminates the risk of high speed collisions. This seems pretty clear, that it's only about the front of the train crossing at 15 mph. Yes, I remember that but Rick said tail end at the board meeting. See 03:40 of the audio. Let's hope that he was wrong and we should also make sure that they stick with the settlement, not new NIMBY demands.
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