outthere15
New Member
Take back the rails
Posts: 33
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Post by outthere15 on Jun 13, 2010 9:25:09 GMT -8
Ken: This is a well reasoned, historically interesting and informative post, I leaned a lot from it. Mark
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Post by Jason Saunders on Jun 13, 2010 12:59:57 GMT -8
Ken while I aggree with your sentiments and logic, I would like to comment on the topic of racism.
Our ideas on race are a product of over five hundred years of social constructs and injustices. While we all would like it to go away it is still a very real part of our social fabric. Racism manifest itself in crime, drugs, HIV/AIDS, poor education, an inferiority complex, low expectation, poverty, corruption, poor health, and underdevelopment. We may not have direct racial laws anymore and true we have come a long way but we still have negative social perceptions programmed into us and an entire class of people still living with the consequences of 500 years of injustice.
The Dorsey High crossing is not about student safety. In these people eyes, they are pushing back against an inequality in just another string of inequalities. You and I and everyone on these boards understand that grade separation has more to do with money, population densities and traffic counts but for them, they're being shafted once again and for them it is very real.
The challenge is education and to rise above our programming.
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 13, 2010 21:41:36 GMT -8
So, Jason, are you saying that significant and cogent opposition exists, within the "indigenous" east of La Brea and west West Adams community against the Farmdale crossing as proposed by the Expo Authority, and for which we are trying to gain approval or are you saying that whatever the Expo Authority proposes, short of a subway solution, cannot expect grass-roots support?
I ask the question because my wife and I walked along Jefferson and Exposition from La Cienega to east of Farmdale and asked people we met about the Expo line. We found no one opposed to it, just a general positive anticipation of its completion.
Whatever the situation, I and others certainly understand a perception that the powers-that-be may not be terribly concerned with those who lack economic power--whether the perception is linked with race or ethnicity. However, despite such concerns, it's hard to fathom that a well-designed station with Dorsey support and community input will continue to be rejected.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 13, 2010 22:16:39 GMT -8
I don't believe any real anti-rail movement exists in the area near Farmdale. There are however plenty of people who have been made suspicious of the project by those spreaders of fear, FixExpo.
A train is a very simple issue really, and I think most people understand that Expo will be an asset to the community, not a burden. But I do also think there are also some people, whose families and communities were affected in the not-so-distant past by racism and racist policies, who are receptive to any suggestion that a discriminatory train is being pushed down their throats.
Enter FixExpo, a group which gains followers by exploiting this fear of government just as skillfully as the anti-tax Tea Party does, by taking an extreme us-vs-them stance against the government, by creating evil motives out of thin air, and by loudly suggesting that the community's very survival is at stake.
As soon as the line opens, FixExpo's followers will return to their normal business. This is because each of these people will privately have to admit that their pied-piper was spreading false fears, and that the train is really just a very reliable transit line that isn't killing massive numbers of black children.
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 13, 2010 23:22:43 GMT -8
Whatever the topic may be that is associated with rail completion, e.g., FEIR, Dorsey, not only rail supporters, but city government and the Expo Authority as well, all confront expert and blatantly exploitative propaganda, not to mention well-conceived and executed community organizing.
Perhaps one needs to think beyond the obvious regarding who benefits from this activity. Sure it's a few crazy home-owners and folks with short fuses. But their rabble rousing has stirred up some and their fund-raising has been significant ...if public reports are to be believed. I can't help but wonder who stands to gain financially ...what motivates the larger sums that support legal action.
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Post by mattapoisett on Jun 14, 2010 0:43:45 GMT -8
I was having lunch with a colleague on Friday. He grew up in LA, lives in Leimert Park and was excited by the thought of Expo coming to the community. He thinks that a little too much hay is being made of the Farmdale issue. But as we were sitting having lunch at Earlez Grille which is right at Crenshaw and Exposition, we noticed every few minutes that traffic would back up just enough from the intersection of Rodeo to leave a car or two stranded on the Expo Crossing. Remember, the plan is not to have gates here. While I doubt there will be accidents since the station stops will keep the trains speed low enough to prevent them but you might imagine during a busier time like rush hour where more cars per hour would be stuck in the crossing causing trains to be delayed. Also when I was coming home to Culver City from Koreatown at 5 pm on a Tuesday two weeks ago, I wanted to check on the progress of Expo. [BTW as an aside thanks to Gokhan and Darrell for the wonderful progress photos you guys have been putting up. they have been fabulous] I took Western down to Exposition and came upon a .5 mile 20 minute stop and go back-up from Jefferson to Exposition Before Jefferson, the traffic was reasonable. But south of that point it was not fun. It was probably as bad as the stretch of La Cienega from Ken Han State park to Jefferson. [There is more traffic on La Cienega since it has more lanes] If I were the jaded world weary person that I am I might roll my eyes at the situation thinking Metro was trying to walk the fine line of safety and fiscal responsibility vs reliability, speed and convenience and some things lost out. While the line will be great for the area, I can imagine sitting in a Expo Car, waiting a few for the intersection at Crenshaw to clear, thinking why did they design it this way, similar to the reaction of most posts on this board I saw about the 101 Gold line crossing being kept to 10 mph initially when it opened. But If I were a member of the community and had found myself, once more, at the short end of the stick, having to accept what I perceived to be sub standard and being more inconvenienced considering what they were doing for other communities on the line, I might get mad, and I think that is what we are seeing here. Or in the case of someone living next to the Expo Line's La Brea Station, Get the heck out of dodge. www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Angeles/5180-Exposition-Blvd-90016/home/6889894 I hear the seller is highly motivated. Take Care - P.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 14, 2010 8:26:28 GMT -8
I would have actually backed FixExpo if they had called for a grade-separation at Crenshaw. The distance from Expo to Rodeo is very short right there, and the distance to Jefferson isn't much greater. I actually am concerned that traffic is going to back up at Crenshaw due to the short queueing distances.
Even Arlington/Expo has a geometry that could lead to local traffic difficulties.
But instead, FixExpo chose Farmdale/Expo as their battleground. By most standards, a station or grade separation at Farmdale/Expo is patently ridiculous. But of course, FixExpo didn't choose Farmdale because of any real need. They chose Farmdale because because it lets them tap into (1) the anger of homeowners who feel discriminated against, and (2) the fears of parents for the safety of their children.
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Post by Jason Saunders on Jun 14, 2010 12:13:31 GMT -8
So, Jason, are you saying that significant and cogent opposition exists, within the "indigenous" east of La Brea and west West Adams community against the Farmdale crossing as proposed by the Expo Authority, and for which we are trying to gain approval or are you saying that whatever the Expo Authority proposes, short of a subway solution, cannot expect grass-roots support? No, I think as do most of you, that Expo has significant support from the community. That support however is fractured in certain areas. As Ken stated race (and now more and more class) plays a part in this fracture both in Cheviot Hills and Dorsey I was referring to the notion that it is easy to dismiss racism and the idea of using "race" as a tool to get what one wants. While, racism can be used as a tool, the fact is, it very much ingrained in our social fabric. You, I, and everyone reading this is on some level racist regardless of skin tone. It manifest itself subtlety in ways that we ourselves may not be aware of. Directors who cast villians as people of color may not think of themselves as racist yet the majority of villians today remain people of color. What color is Jesus? Does he look middle eastern? Why are African Americans disproportionately incarcerated above and beyond their percentage of the population? Why do so few black people go to college? Slavery may have ended over a hundred years ago, however without the benefit of higher education or inheritance a cycle of poverty has persisted for generations to this day. People of color are aware of these things. We may choose to look the other way however many people are forced to live with the notion of inferiority. When presented with this it is easier to understand why the race card can so easily be slapped on the table. I found this documentary to be a bit leftest but informative: www.hulu.com/watch/93209/500-years-later
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Post by mattapoisett on Jun 14, 2010 14:40:30 GMT -8
I would have actually backed FixExpo if they had called for a grade-separation at Crenshaw. They did and they got shot down by the CPUC. Since there seemed to be no future in that argument they moved on to ..... Fix Expo chose Farmdale/Dorsey when the CPUC said there might be a case for arguing for further mitigation. I imagine that they felt like their arguments for Crenshaw, Western et al, were ignored and in order to be heard and/or taken seriously they might have to ratchet up the rhetoric. Its a theory I am working on. By kicking it up a few notches, they have turned into uber gadflies. Because of this I'm not as much of a fan of Damien as I was when his dream map was published. But I don't think he is totally off base in trying to bring to the forefront issues which should have attention paid but were seemingly dismissed too readily by Expo and Metro.
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 14, 2010 23:07:25 GMT -8
P. - Your points, metrocenter's and Spokker's are well-stated and enlightening.
...Given that traffic backs up just enough from the intersection of Rodeo to leave a car or two stranded on the Expo Crossing, possibly delaying the train,
...that a half mile 20 minute back-up from Jefferson to Exposition will occur from time to time,
...that Crenshaw and Western have no grade separation,
...that hard feelings remain over decisions that arguably may not serve the West of West Adams / East of La Brea community at all,
I'm left with the question, "with practicality in mind, what is left to do?"
I cannot imagine any of these issues can or will be dealt with further until an operational Expo line validates these concerns.
To use Farmdale as a battleground seems as a fight over spilled milk, not a fight that serves the community by building the case for remedial grade separation, because the CPUC will not reconsider and vacate earlier decisions.
Perhaps what is left to do is to: 1) acknowledging and somehow registering these problems as vaild and needing further data for validation and subsequent action, 2) recognizing the FixExpo folks, et al, antics for what they are -- "acting out," and somehow procedurally dismissing them as quickly as possible.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jun 15, 2010 8:36:21 GMT -8
I drove by Dorsey High School recently and noticed another dangerous thing that can kill kids and I really think we should have a CPUC hearing on it too: School Buses.
I'm not kidding. While not as heavy as a train, if a child were to jump in front of a school bus they would be just as dead as if a train were to hit them and I'm not comfortable with that either. Buses regularly travel right in front of the school at a deadly speed of 35 miles per hour. This is just unacceptable.
If a group of children were waiting for a schoolbus and that bus were to hit a car it could push the car in to the waiting students or flip over onto them, causing untold trauma. It would make a regular car accident nothing! Think of all those poor kids! How can we leave them at risk?
Another thing, these school buses regularly drive ON CAMPUS to pick up and drop off students involved in various sporting clubs. How can we allow these big heavy vehicles to do this? You know kids - especially those in sports - they are just itching to dare each other to do something crazy. They're going to dare each other to run in front of a schoolbus one day soon. You can count on it - and we will have no one to blame but ourselves for another dead or hurt child, and for not making it safe. No cost is too much for our children!
I request, no I demand, that an underground schoolbus loading zone be built at Dorsey High School. Buses would enter this underground station at La Brea to be kept safely away from our children. Students could only board buses once the bus has come to a complete stop and automatic barriers have come down to prevent the bus from moving. It's the only safe way.
- A concerned parent
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Post by mattapoisett on Jun 15, 2010 9:29:40 GMT -8
I'm left with the question, "with practicality in mind, what is left to do?" I cannot imagine any of these issues can or will be dealt with further until an operational Expo line validates these concerns. To use Farmdale as a battleground seems as a fight over spilled milk, not a fight that serves the community by building the case for remedial grade separation, because the CPUC will not reconsider and vacate earlier decisions. What may happen if Fix Expo wins [and I am not taking odds on that] is Metro might be forced to reexamine and adjust its formula for grade separation. Which if applied in the future to crossings like Crenshaw and Western Aves would come to different conclusions.
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 15, 2010 11:31:05 GMT -8
I agree with the bottom line, that what is at issue is Metro's formula for grade separation, nothing more and nothing less. I'd like to see this question stay at the forefront of debate as the Phase I line begins operations. Data collection devices on the major Expo rail crossings could test the perception that the current grade separation fails provide separation where it's really required.
I find the current hype and hoopla surrounding both Farmdale and Overland utterly unproductive and resource-wasting. The sooner Phase I completes, more time will be available for traffic findings along Phase I to be applied to the Overland crossing, in particular.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Jun 15, 2010 12:47:46 GMT -8
I agree with the bottom line, that what is at issue is Metro's formula for grade separation, nothing more and nothing less. I'd like to see this question stay at the forefront of debate as the Phase I line begins operations. Data collection devices on the major Expo rail crossings could test the perception that the current grade separation fails provide separation where it's really required. I find the current hype and hoopla surrounding both Farmdale and Overland utterly unproductive and resource-wasting. The sooner Phase I completes, more time will be available for traffic findings along Phase I to be applied to the Overland crossing, in particular. Now, if Overland received grade seperation.......the noise from FixExpo about "racial discrimination" will grow louder....
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 15, 2010 13:22:11 GMT -8
...If a grade separation need emerged from data collected on Crenshaw and Western, then a remedial bridge design at Crenshaw and Western should follow, in addition to addressing the Overland issue.
...Although there is a perception of discrimination in the community, I don't think any community leader wants to tie up traffic and incur the wrath of the electorate (or his/her boss in the case of an administrator).
...Of course, I'm not the guy who knows the determination process. This may just be a lot of hot air! Nonetheless, there ought to be an alternative to the crazy accusations (FixExpo, NFSR, etc.) and the courts.
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Post by darrell on Jun 15, 2010 22:22:02 GMT -8
This Marx Brothers clip speaks for a lot of those we deal with, reaching for any reasons to support their opposition.
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Post by mattapoisett on Jun 16, 2010 6:11:59 GMT -8
This Marx Brothers clip speaks for a lot of those we deal with, reaching for any reasons to support their opposition. And here is what really happens when Metro implements an at grade policy which they don't quite fully grasp the consequences of: articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/03/local/me-orange3
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Jun 16, 2010 6:55:27 GMT -8
This Marx Brothers clip speaks for a lot of those we deal with, reaching for any reasons to support their opposition. And here is what really happens when Metro implements an at grade policy which they don't quite fully grasp the consequences of: articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/03/local/me-orange3Too bad that after almost 5 years, that "line" exhibited no improvements (other than converting two green lighted intersections to cautionary flashing yellow lights). Although there's this branch route (902) that does its job better for $300M less.
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 16, 2010 8:52:37 GMT -8
P., ...So what you're suggesting is that safety concerns may require trains to slow much below the projected speeds in order to avoid accidents in at-grade rail crossing designs. I believe you're suggesting that an at-grade design may often do a poor job accommodating the realities of traffic flow in busy areas, and that you believe Metro has insufficiently taken traffic flow into account in its grade policy as applied to several Expo crossings.
Please excuses me for seemingly putting words ...or ideas in your mouth, but I want to get this as clear as possible because I think what we're hearing from you is important.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 16, 2010 15:30:53 GMT -8
It seems like there are some concerns about risks of impacts from Expo. I've voiced my concerns about crossings at Crenshaw and Arlington. And mattapoisett brought up the Orange Line.
Maybe right now is the time in the evolution of our transit system where we need to expand the discussion about how to balance all the factors (cost, speed, safety, traffic impacts, eminent domain, etc.) that lead to design decisions about our transit lines.
However, this discussion will not include the options of stopping, delaying or diverting Expo. The line is just too important to consider this. This is in contrast to FixExpo and NFSR, who are more than happy to have no line at all if they are not satisfied with the design.
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Post by darrell on Jun 16, 2010 15:51:13 GMT -8
On the subject of the signal-controlled intersections at Crenshaw, Western, and Vermont, I'd expect:
* Little or no change to cross-traffic flow, as existing signal cycles will continue to be used, although in some cases with added left-turn phases;
* Trains will cross within existing east-west green phases, but may be delayed waiting for their green light, depending on the degree of signal priority LADOT provides;
* Enforcement may be necessary if traffic queues across the intersection and tracks - same as is sometimes necessary in conventional intersections to prevent gridlock.
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Post by rajacobs on Jun 16, 2010 16:42:20 GMT -8
I agree that Expo is just too important to waylay. ...This is what confuses and concerns me regarding the current legal challenges! The expressed concerns may or may not have significance, but completing the line as designed should be the first priority rather than allowing a portion of LA to remain without rail transit. There may be room for / requirements for reengineering, but there has been responsible consideration of the options and the need is great.
Enforcement brought a smile to my face. ...Some of the traffic officers positioned to stall interlopers on Manning north of National could be redeployed to Crenshaw, Western and Vermont.
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 23, 2010 16:04:20 GMT -8
The proposed decision approving the at-grade Farmdale Station is in. This means the fight against the Phase 1 NIMBYs is almost over and after the July 29th CPUC meeting approving the decision, we will never hear about the Fix Expo NIMBYs again! As one of our transit advocates just said, "Check, Fix Expo" and I say good riddance to the Phase 1 Fix Expo NIMBYs already! Proposed decisionMaster link to CPUC Farmdale documentsPhase 2 NFSR NIMBYs, the Expo Line is now coming smartly at-grade to the Westside neighborhood!Excerpts from the proposed decision
4. Need for a Hearing
No party has identified a disputed issue of material fact relating to the settlement agreement so no evidentiary hearings are necessary. Thus, we find that the record on this consolidated proceeding can be closed and the matter determined at this time.
5.3.4. The Opinions of the General Public, and Specifically Those who may be Affected by an At-Grade Crossing
The public’s views about the proposed settlement agreement and station were addressed at the June 1, 2010, Public Participation Hearing. More than half of the approximately 85 commenters opposed the Farmdale crossing being constructed at-grade. Many of the opposing commenters supported complete vehicular and pedestrian grade separation. That alternative, however, has not been presented by Expo and, the Commission declined to find such options practicable in D.09-02-031. Expo also contends that as a result of its outreach into the community, the nearby public is satisfied with the revised proposal for the Farmdale crossing. The Commission has received 18 written comments from the public on the proposed settlement. One comment opposed the proposal and the other 17 supported it.
5.3.8. Conclusion
On balance, the Farmdale crossing station proposal substantially diminishes the safety issues created by a pedestrian at-grade crossing, without adding new safety and aesthetic issues. The station also adds to the neighborhood convenience by providing walkable access to the Expo line for residents and students and retains the vehicular crossing. We, therefore, conclude that the Farmdale station alternative is superior to the pedestrian overcrossing, vehicular crossing closed option.
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Post by darrell on Jun 23, 2010 16:14:34 GMT -8
Here are some key paragraphs from the Proposed Decision: 4. Need for a Hearing No party has identified a disputed issue of material fact relating to the settlement agreement so no evidentiary hearings are necessary. Thus, we find that the record on this consolidated proceeding can be closed and the matter determined at this time.
5.3.4. The Opinions of the General Public, and Specifically Those who may be Affected by an At-Grade Crossing The public’s views about the proposed settlement agreement and station were addressed at the June 1, 2010, Public Participation Hearing. More than half of the approximately 85 commenters opposed the Farmdale crossing being constructed at-grade. Many of the opposing commenters supported complete vehicular and pedestrian grade separation. That alternative, however, has not been presented by Expo and, the Commission declined to find such options practicable in D.09-02-031. Expo also contends that as a result of its outreach into the community, the nearby public is satisfied with the revised proposal for the Farmdale crossing. The Commission has received 18 written comments from the public on the proposed settlement. One comment opposed the proposal and the other 17 supported it.
5.3.8. Conclusion On balance, the Farmdale crossing station proposal substantially diminishes the safety issues created by a pedestrian at-grade crossing, without adding new safety and aesthetic issues. The station also adds to the neighborhood convenience by providing walkable access to the Expo line for residents and students and retains the vehicular crossing. We, therefore, conclude that the Farmdale station alternative is superior to the pedestrian overcrossing, vehicular crossing closed option.
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 23, 2010 17:08:12 GMT -8
Well, the game is over and the bad Fix Expo NIMBY guys were defeated. The good guys can now happily roam around Farmdale...
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Post by bobdavis on Jun 23, 2010 19:00:45 GMT -8
What a neat graphic! One could even say "charming" or "idyllic". Considering all the hostility spread by certain partisans in this matter, a welcome dose of "nice".
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 23, 2010 22:00:50 GMT -8
From page 5: two or three students per day are identified as being "under the influence of alcohol or marijuana." Ha ha, I think they are undercounting by just a wee bit. Anyway if these stoners can keep from getting run over by the train, they are now going to have a very convenient alternative to driving available.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 23, 2010 22:01:41 GMT -8
What a neat graphic! One could even say "charming" or "idyllic". Considering all the hostility spread by certain partisans in this matter, a welcome dose of "nice". Ha ha, it's from Farmville, an annoying *my opinion* game on Facebook.
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Post by John Ryan on Jun 23, 2010 23:41:18 GMT -8
Anyone care to weigh in on what process CPUC is in now and what they are likely to decide?
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Post by darrell on Jun 24, 2010 0:07:20 GMT -8
Anyone care to weigh in on what process CPUC is in now and what they are likely to decide? Most likely to me is as Gokhan projects, that it will be on the July 27 CPUC agenda to approve the Proposed Decision following comments received from the parties and public. To remember it, here's a "before" photo looking east from Farmdale this evening. And here's how the same view looked on 7/20/08 (more zoomed in on the sycamore trees):
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