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Post by rajacobs on Jul 31, 2010 22:09:14 GMT -8
Culver City Town Center and the Expo Line Venice Station are seven tenths of a mile apart, perhaps the longest seven tenths in the area! Somehow, Culver City is going to have to figure out how to tie their downtown at Main Street and Washington to their train station at Venice/ Washington and Exposition and it’s going to be no easy task.
Separating the two geographical locations are: Howard Industries, a wholesale distributor of HVAC parts—adjacent to the Venice station; then Fedex; followed by an office building; and then a block-long auto dealership.
The town center is doing just fine, with many restaurants, a movie theatre, boutiques, Trader Joe’s, among other businesses. But the question is, “Where does it go from here – is this the right collection of businesses to sustain the location – should the town center take advantage of the train station, and if so how (and this doesn’t touch on the other nagging question of how the train station will tie in with Culver City’s other development—the Helms Bakery complex)?
A walk down Washington Boulevard to the west, from Washington and Exposition, that’s 2 blocks to Washington and Ince and then across the block to Main Street, tells the story—a sterile and uninteresting walk. Only the Royale-T café breaks the monotony of fences and cars for sale. If it wasn’t for great food at Kay and Dave’s and Novocento’s we’d go in another direction. Something has to be done about this stretch if the train station will tie-in well with Culver City downtown!
I’ve conjured up a pedestrian mall down Washington …seems too far-fetched. I’ve thought of Culver simply buying up the parcels in question …seems terribly expensive and I am not sure that either Howard Industries or the car dealership would be interested in moving.
…But the image of a pedestrian mall that begins at the train station and cuts westward through the center of the west side of the block the station is on, and then continues through what is now the auto dealership …well, it really captivates me. …Almost like a Culver City “Citywalk,” energizing the area and it would all be anchored by the train. …sort of what I wish the Grove could have been (an easy-access business center without traffic jams).
I'm really interested in seeing how Culver City addresses this challenge.
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Post by crzwdjk on Aug 1, 2010 12:07:31 GMT -8
The problem is that pedestrian malls are, by themselves, generally not enough to attract pedestrians and create a successful pedestrian-oriented environment. Something else has to attract the people first, and then you can put in a pedestrian mall once there are enough people that operating cars through the area is getting to be difficult anyway. I imagine that if the station becomes a successful pedestrian hub, it will attract more business around it, until the two areas of development join in the middle. One useful thing that the city can do is ensure that if the car dealerships shut down, they're not replaced, but I somehow doubt that they'd want to do that. Cars are expensive and represent lots and lots of sales tax revenue after all.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 1, 2010 12:27:24 GMT -8
The problem is that pedestrian malls are, by themselves, generally not enough to attract pedestrians and create a successful pedestrian-oriented environment. Something else has to attract the people first The pedestrian-oriented environment in Downtown Culver City already exists: it doesn't need to be created. The problem is that there is no direct connection between this wonderful downtown and the new station. I've thought about this particular location an awful lot over the last few years. The built landscape is very antagonistic to a pedestrian walk. Really the only good solution I can think of is the one rajacobs described: somehow slice through that mega-block with a pedestrian thoroughfare that leads directly from the station to Downtown. But as crzwdik says, that would mean getting rid of the auto dealerships. That may be a non-starter for the city, due to the revenues such a car dealership brings in.
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Post by Gokhan on Aug 1, 2010 13:01:40 GMT -8
I just found out that the distance from the Venice/Robertson Station to Downtown Culver City and the distance from the National/Palms Station to Downtown Culver City are the same; in fact National/Palms is slightly closer.
So, for people coming from or going to the west, the National/Palms Station would be faster to access Downtown Culver City. It's also an easier walk through Palms because it is residential with few major street crossings.
From Venice/Robertson, it's 0.5 miles and up, depending on where you are going in Donwtown Culver City. Currently it takes a comparable time to walk from a Culver City parking lot to downtown attractions, in fact probably longer if you also account for looking for a parking spot.
There is no need to get rid of the car dealerships, which are not really in the way and useful to hundreds of thousands of people.
The entire station area is being turned into a TOD. Many of the existing businesses will be replaced. Also, a pedestrian overpass across Venice will be built.
Currently the area is reasonably pedestrian friendly, except for crossing Venice Blvd, which is so wide because it used to be a double-track railroad plus a divided highway. This is being addressed with the pedestrian overpass. Although, pedestrian overpasses are dreaded by most people because they involve climbing stairs, and better crosswalks will be needed as well.
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 1, 2010 14:59:44 GMT -8
Using Mapquest and selecting “shortest distance,” my numbers are a bit different (check my work!). Selecting Washington and Main Street as “Downtown Culver City” and then National & Manning and then Venice and Exposition for the station locations, I get .79 mi from the Palms Station and .39 from the Venice Station via Venice and .54 via Washington Bl. …So, even though I too enjoy the walk through Palms, apparently the Venice station is closer to Washington & Main. I’ve heard that Culver City is planning on TOD (transit-oriented development) around the station and there are several unoccupied, almost derelict structures that will accommodate that. …But I’m wary to imagine folks trekking the .5 miles down Washington to the downtown (at least without a stop at the Royal-T). ...New and used cars are all well and good, but after passing them a few times they get boring and the Krav Maga martial arts studio is great ….if I’m up for a workout. And the Insurance Collision Center… OK, I’ll stop. …The walk doesn’t fit my imagination of an evening. A shuttle bus is a thought, but I can’t imagine a train to a bus to entertainment. Trying to imagine what Culver City planners may have in store, I looked up the General Plan and its Land-use component, www.culvercity.org/Government/CommunityDevelopment/Planning/~/media/Files/Planning/GeneralPlan/Land%20Use%20Element.ashx. What I found was the following statement as their objective for Washington Bl.: “Support the existing cluster of new car dealerships along Washington Blvd. between Ince and National Blvds by encouraging the relocation of new dealerships on adjacent parcels.” If this remains so then my walk from the train to Culver City downtown will be a long one.
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Post by Gokhan on Aug 1, 2010 16:40:31 GMT -8
Using Mapquest and selecting “shortest distance,” my numbers are a bit different (check my work!). Selecting Washington and Main Street as “Downtown Culver City” and then National & Manning and then Venice and Exposition for the station locations, I get .79 mi from the Palms Station and .39 from the Venice Station via Venice and .54 via Washington Bl. …So, even though I too enjoy the walk through Palms, apparently the Venice station is closer to Washington & Main. Depends where you base the measurement on. I was looking at Washington and Hughes, and from there the Palms/National station is 0.68 and Venice/Robertson is 0.72 miles. But for the movie theaters near Main St, Venice/Robertson would be faster. You should also make the measurements from the center of the platform and for Venice/Robertson this is midway between Venice and Washington.
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 1, 2010 19:01:33 GMT -8
...when Google or Mapquest so notes the location(!) ...But the Plan surprises me unless it's an older version that's been updated, but not online. Here we are talking mass-transit and a future with reduced reliance on the auto and there CC is, talking about a greater presence for new car dealerships!
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Post by Gokhan on Aug 1, 2010 23:12:35 GMT -8
...when Google or Mapquest so notes the location(!) Also note that Google Earth's path ruler is a great way to accurately measure distances.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 6, 2010 12:00:08 GMT -8
Rather than creating a pedestrian link from the station to Downtown Culver City, another option is to expand Downtown until it is much closer to the station. This can happen, but the city will need to choose which of the paths (either Washington or Culver/Venice) to pedestrianize. Suppose they choose Washington. Then, here's the plan: - Demolish the long strip mall along Venice Blvd. between Culver and Robertson
- Relocate the auto dealership from Washington Blvd. to Venice Blvd.
- Rezone the north side of Washington Blvd. to support restaurants, nightlife, etc.
With this plan, the walk to Downtown (which now begins at Washington/Roberston) is only .2 miles (about 3 minutes) from Venice/Robertson. Alternatively, suppose they choose Culver/Venice. Then it's really just a matter of pedestrianizing the south side of Venice Blvd. between Culver and Robertson. - Demolish the long strip mall along Venice Blvd. between Culver and Robertson
- Rezone that strip to allow bars and restaurants, and to require buildings without setbacks (with parking in back).
- Close off the Culver Blvd. entrance to Miller Toyota.
- Add a feature (maybe an arch) across Culver Blvd. at Venice that announces the park and the pedestrian entrance to Downtown Culver City.
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andop2
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Post by andop2 on Aug 6, 2010 12:37:39 GMT -8
Rather than creating a pedestrian link from the station to Downtown Culver City, another option is to expand Downtown until it is much closer to the station. This can happen, but the city will need to choose which of the paths (either Washington or Culver/Venice) to pedestrianize. The problem for Culver City is that while Venice to Culver makes the most sense as a "grand entrance" to downtown, this part of Venice is wholly in Los Angeles. Washington forms the backbone of Culver City, from La Cienega to Costco near Lincoln, so that may be the obvious choice. There is no way Culver City will want to sacrifice the sales tax revenues it gets from the auto dealership by allowing it to relocate to Venice Blvd (in LA). Culver City's best bet might be to instigate a shuttle that runs between downtown and the Helms Bakery area further down on Washington to tie it all together. Turning the Venice Boulevard minimall from Robertson to Culver (Del Taco to Wendy's) into a pedestrian park leading to Media Park and Ivy Substation would be a wonderful idea if all the parties could cooperate to get it done. (Media Park, by the way, is also in Los Angeles, but Culver City obtained a 40-year lease from LA to maintain it. Could the same be done for the strip mall?)
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 6, 2010 12:44:47 GMT -8
Ah, good point, Venice is in L.A. That of course changes everything.
Just from a planning and neighborhood-design standpoint, it still seems like expanding downtown Culver City along Culver and Venice makes more sense. The intersection of Culver and Venice already has a fantastic park which is very accommodating to pedestrians. The big obstacle is the strip mall, anchored by the Wendy's drive-thru. Replace that with a tree-lined sidewalk and retail/restaurants, and the effect will be transformative.
I wonder if there is anybody in L.A. government willing to take ownership of the station area. Probably not.
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 6, 2010 12:57:21 GMT -8
Expanding downtown Culver City along Culver and Venice offers a lot of traffic noise and congestion to anyone on foot (...been walking the route frequently). So the obstacle is not only the strip mall and Wendy's but the ambience of adjacency to Venice. and then walking across the Miller Toyota service entrance presence.
I also imagine Miller Toyota represents significant tax revenue to the city ...hence I am short on a good suggestion.
Regarding LA "taking ownership of the station area," not after all that Culver City is sinking into it; I don't think that Culver City would go for that!
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 6, 2010 13:40:26 GMT -8
...And a friend of mine in the area just wrote me:
"I did a test march from home to the station to guestimate timing.
"That last bump between the station the and intersection with Trader Joe's is simply desolate.
"Foot traffic alone will completely hose the traffic patterns there and will make vehicle traffic nearly impossible at commuter times."
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andop2
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Post by andop2 on Aug 6, 2010 13:49:13 GMT -8
Expanding downtown Culver City along Culver and Venice offers a lot of traffic noise and congestion to anyone on foot (...been walking the route frequently). So the obstacle is not only the strip mall and Wendy's but the ambience of adjacency to Venice. and then walking across the Miller Toyota service entrance presence. I also imagine Miller Toyota represents significant tax revenue to the city ...hence I am short on a good suggestion. Perhaps the quaint light industrial Willat/Hoke section just south of the strip mall could present the beginnings of a pedestrian corridor. Ideally, the whole Willat/Hoke section would make a nice park or mixed use area. The rear part of Miller Honda repair shop would have to be acquired and the Miller Toyota repair entrance relocated to Washington, too, but this at least is in Culver City and could stand to be developed in a transit-friendly way.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 6, 2010 13:55:10 GMT -8
I just took a look at the city plans for that part of L.A., just north of Culver City near Robertson.
That little pocket of L.A. is on the far eastern corner of the "Palms - Mar Vista - Del Rey Community Plan". It is bordered immediately to the east by the "West Adams - Baldwin Hills - Leimert Community Plan", and bordered on the northwest by the "West Los Angeles Community Plan".
Although the area in question (near Venice/Robertson) is in a community plan, it is not governed by any specific plan. Thus, it is something of a no-mans land. As for zoning, everything in that area along Venice between Durango and National is zoned as "light industrial", except for the strip mall in question, which is zoned as "commercial/manufacturing".
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andop2
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Post by andop2 on Aug 6, 2010 14:01:25 GMT -8
I meant "south" of the strip mall, the alley ways known as Willat/Hoke. Sorry for the confusion.
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Post by metrocenter on Aug 6, 2010 14:05:55 GMT -8
Regarding LA "taking ownership of the station area," not after all that Culver City is sinking into it; I don't think that Culver City would go for that! I didn't mean literally taking ownership: just meant taking its fair share of responsibility for the area within the L.A. city limits near the station.
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 7, 2010 12:42:41 GMT -8
Metrocenter, the information on the city plans is fascinating. From LA's vantage, appears the areas been overlooked. Light industrial zoning for the Venice strip is outdated. In conjunction with the Expo planning, I'd think that LA planning organization would want to review this.
Additionally, Andop2's comment regarding the corridor just south of the strip mall--the Willat/Hoke section--is fascinating; never knew it was there. I'll try to get over there and grab a pic of this.
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 7, 2010 15:39:08 GMT -8
OK, the Willat/Hoke section mentioned above, by andop2, is just West of Robertson about 100 ft south of Venice (if that). These are 2 little roads: Hoke, runs west parallel to Venice behind the strip mall and would continue through Wendy's and attach to Culver; the other, Willat, goes southwest. At one time it would have bisected the Miller Honda/Toyota car display lot to reach Washington. The entrance to these streets is on the west side of Robertson just south of Venice: From the entrance, a street on the left opens--Willat--this is the one that goes southwest and would, if continued, bisect the auto dealership: Straight ahead from the entrance, the other street proceeds--Hoke--to the west ...to the rear of Wendy's(!) which blocks it from reaching Culver: Because of the location of these 2 streets, they would be naturals to receive pedestrian feeder traffic from the Culver City Expo station and enable easy access either to the Culver studio complex (Willat) or to downtown (Hoke), ...if the streets went somewhere! In addition to being able to channel pedestrian traffic, they would be naturals for small shops and a pedestrian mall ambience, ...but the car dealership to the west (and Wendy's) cut off all possiblities.
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andop2
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Post by andop2 on Aug 9, 2010 13:32:16 GMT -8
OK, the Willat/Hoke section mentioned above, by andop2, is just West of Robertson about 100 ft south of Venice (if that). These are 2 little roads: Hoke, runs west parallel to Venice behind the strip mall and would continue through Wendy's and attach to Culver; the other, Willat, goes southwest. At one time it would have bisected the Miller Honda/Toyota car display lot to reach Washington. Because of the location of these 2 streets, they would be naturals to receive pedestrian feeder traffic from the Culver City Expo station and enable easy access either to the Culver studio complex (Willat) or to downtown (Hoke), ...if the streets went somewhere! In addition to being able to channel pedestrian traffic, they would be naturals for small shops and a pedestrian mall ambience, ...but the car dealership to the west (and Wendy's) cut off all possiblities. Thanks rajacobs for the pictures and analysis. It is going to take some cooperation and vision for this idea to work. First, Wendy’s has to go to open up the corridor. It would be ideal (but not essential) to remove some of the Miller Honda structure as well (perhaps Miller Honda could be given some land in the adjoining Willat/Hoke area nearer to Washington as part compensation). The best idea would be to have the strip mall in LA reconfigured completely (if not eliminated), with new entrances to the south opposite the pedestrian zone (with patio dining?). The LA portion is in Herb Wesson’s district. Maybe some of these ideas could be presented as a joint project to Mr. Wesson and Culver City council member Scott Malsin, who both sit on the Expo Board. It could be a win-win for both cities to work together to improve this gateway area for transit visitors. PS: It turns out that the alley-like portion of Hoke parallel to Venice is still LA (there are “no parking” notices that cite the LAMC (Los Angeles Municipal Code). Also, this “alley” is not claimed on Culver City’s own maps. Culver City begins with the buildings south of Hoke.
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Post by stuckintraffic on Aug 9, 2010 17:00:34 GMT -8
here's an interesting fact: that Wendy's was built in the very recent past. I'd say 5-7 years, max. Not sure what was there before -- maybe nothing. sigh.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Aug 9, 2010 22:32:08 GMT -8
here's an interesting fact: that Wendy's was built in the very recent past. I'd say 5-7 years, max. Not sure what was there before -- maybe nothing. sigh. I used to work at Brotman Medical Center back in 2002 - 2004 and am very familiar with the area; in fact, I used to eat at Del Taco at Venice/Robertson, staring towards Howard Industries while chowing down - this was at a time before I was a transit aficionado - not knowing during my lunchtime, that area I stared into would have more meaning later in my life. Anyways, I myself saw Wendy's put in, and before, it was just a parking lot; in fact, whoever put the Wendy's there by Miller Honda and Smitty's (cajun food restaurant) really crammed it in a small parking lot. Considering I walked from Brotman, which is in the area of downtown Culver City, to Del Taco, where Expo Line's Venice station will be, I don't find the pedestrian experience too terrible. Every week or so, there is a farmers market that occurs in the vicinity, which would make the area even more pedestrian friendly.
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Post by roadtrainer on Aug 10, 2010 10:17:31 GMT -8
I drive by Roberson and National twice a day in my white bus with two red stripes , and I noticed that the columns (called Bents) will be sitting in the middle of Robertson, therefore it is my conclusion that Del Taco will have to be torn down to make away for the street closures and the widening/shortening of Roberson, National, and Venice Blvd. Anybody disagree? Give me your thoughts
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 10, 2010 11:09:49 GMT -8
It's hard to imagine impeding Robertson with columns; I was hoping for a really long span as was constructed across Rosekrantz for the light rail bridge. If you have a chance would love to see a map with the columns marked on it.
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 10, 2010 11:10:34 GMT -8
Hoke Willat is currently billed as a "creative/light industrial" area. Willat St. is apparently named after the old Willat Studios, started up by Irvin Willat, which was located just off Washington Bl. in the area of Willat Street. The studio was relocated to Beverly Hills, where it has stood since the 1920s as a private residence called the "Witch's House." It is known as the "Witch's House" because of its distinctive gingerbread character and it almost was returned to Culver City for a historic museum. Today, a bakery & caterer, an architect, a fence co., audio rentals, a furniture designer, a tech co., tile co. and construction co. are among the businesses along Wilat & Hoke. Additionally Miller Honda advertises that customers should enter their service facility turning from Washington "on Hoke into our dealership." Bottom line: the Miller auto dealership bisects the block and prevents natural linkage of the Willat-Hoke area to the downtown. While the Hoke Willat streets could be redeveloped as a destination (surrounded on 2 sides by the dealership), linkage to the downtown would require, at the least, removal of Wendy's and reconceptualing Hoke, the majority of which functions as an alley--assuming that relocation of at least part of the Miller dealership is not in the cards. Taking another look at the picture of the entire block (Ince-Culver-Venice-Robertson-Washington), were nothing on the block, it would function as a natural funnel into downtown Culver City and totally set the stage the area as a destination ...and I can see the "Witch's House" a curiosity that revisits Culver City's earlier days of film glory. With the addition of clubs, bars, and stores, the downtown could be made even better than it already is.
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Post by Gokhan on Aug 10, 2010 11:26:57 GMT -8
The Expo right-of-way, especially with the station pushed all the way to the south as it is, crosses Venice west of Robertson. I am guessing there will be a support in the median of Venice but not in Robertson lanes. The span would be way too long (400 - 500 ft) otherwise and wouldn't meet the post-Northridge (post-1994) earthquake standards. Also, the soil in this area seems to be soft as well.
We should soon see the return of the Malcolm drill rigs to the area!
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 10, 2010 11:48:25 GMT -8
I'd love to see a drawing of the Venice span.
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Post by rubbertoe on Aug 10, 2010 13:11:21 GMT -8
We should soon see the return of the Malcolm drill rigs to the area! If 30/10 somehow gets on track, they will have to build a couple additional Malcolm rig factories. We can only hope. Something else for us to take pictures of
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Post by Gokhan on Aug 10, 2010 15:40:31 GMT -8
We should soon see the return of the Malcolm drill rigs to the area! If 30/10 somehow gets on track, they will have to build a couple additional Malcolm rig factories. We can only hope. Something else for us to take pictures of Well, Malcolm is the company that operates the drill rigs. But they might indeed need to purchase more. On Expo alone: Venice, Sawtelle/Pico, Bundy, and Centinela bridges. Then there is the Crenshaw, Foothill, Green, 405, West Santa Ana, and Eastside Lines with aerial sections that require drilling for supports. I can imagine that 405 LRT can have a lot of aerial sections. By the way that's 1,000 new LRVs and someone needs to build an LRV factory as well!
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Post by rajacobs on Aug 11, 2010 8:00:35 GMT -8
Walked from the Culver station to downtown last night. It's clear that along Venice and Culver is the fastest and easiest route and to get to the studios southwest along Rovertson.
Regarding the Culver route--seems as if the station could generate a lot of pedestrian foot traffic and as the neighborhood is presently configured, I can't imagine where people will walk! The strip mall is just not pedestrian-friendly and the Hoke alley behind it--well, forget it!
The most straight-forward of the alternatives would be to replace the strip mall and Wendy's with trees and grass and kiosks or stores along this strip, and then market products and services to the pedestrian traffic. ...Just a wild-eyed thought!
FYI, walked to the end of Willat. That cul de sac is really closed-in with high walls of the Miller dealership to the south and west. When the car dealership expanded, Willat was sacrificed. It would have been merciful to just incorporate Willat into the dealership. ...And Hoke St.--this is nothing more than an alley!
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