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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 8:40:03 GMT -8
In this case, the LA Times got it completely wrong. "West Adams" is east of Jefferson Park, not west of it. West Adams is a historic neighborhood and is one of the oldest neighborhoods in Los Angeles. The LA Times has no right to rename it as "Adams-Normandie". LA Times is correct. See zimas.lacity.org/LA Times is not correct. The definition is here.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 8:42:54 GMT -8
LA Times is not correct. The definition is here. Zimas is the official zoning Web site of City of Los Angeles. If they are saying West Adams, it's West Adams. In the future, it will help if you put your references as well, rather than stating everything as your own facts (which is what you usually tend to). That way, if there is something wrong, you won't look as bad, and it will help us get better information on the subject.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 8:44:35 GMT -8
LA Times is not correct. The definition is here. Zimas is the official zoning Web site of City of Los Angeles. If they are saying West Adams, it's West Adams. The definition of West Adams is over a century old. Your map is showing legislative districts, not neighborhoods.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 8:47:31 GMT -8
Sentous was a community of French farmers in the 1800's, living to east of what is now Culver City. It was named after Jean Sentous, one of the dairy farmers from France. His name probably refers to Sentous, a small village located in the Pyrenees of southern France. Another French farmer, Louis Sentous, owned property in Downtown LA. I have no idea if he was related to Jean or had anything to do with the community near La Cienega ("the swamp"). The farmers and the old station are long gone, and I'd be surprised if anyone other than Google Maps refers to it as Sentous in 2010. Reference? Someone asked a question and I answered it. I'm not going to cite all my references, I don't have that time to do that, and this is freely available information.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 8:50:24 GMT -8
Zimas is the official zoning Web site of City of Los Angeles. If they are saying West Adams, it's West Adams. The definition of West Adams is over a century old. Your map is showing legislative districts, not neighborhoods. But you didn't know that. Again, see above, and put your references. It's silly to claim that you know everything and you're right all the time, even when you're wrong (last-word thing again).
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 8:52:51 GMT -8
The definition of West Adams is over a century old. Your map is showing legislative districts, not neighborhoods. But you didn't know that. Again, see above, and put your references. It's silly to claim that you know everything and you're right all the time, even when you're wrong (last-word thing again). I don't claim to know everything. I have already listed the same reference twice, please use your mouse and scroll up a few posts. You don't reference every claim you make, so why should I?
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 8:59:04 GMT -8
You don't reference every claim you make, so why should I? Well, again, in this case for example, the name West Adams was justified according to Zimas, and if you had put your reference rather than claiming it as fact, it would have helped understand what was going on. I wouldn't make a deal out of this, but you do this all the time -- stating what you believe to be true or something you see somewhere as absolute facts. The speed of the Gold Line was another recent example. On a similar note, why wouldn't you bother to give the reference for the Sentous information? You couldn't possibly know that all by yourself. Do you want us to think that you are a library of some sort? It would not only look better but help us learn more about the subject. Wow, I just noticed that this was my 2000th post.
My best regards go to everyone on this board, including metrocenter, whom I was just picking on.
We will always defeat Fix Expo, NFSR, and other NIMBYs, and the future of Los Angeles will be on rails.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 9:32:23 GMT -8
Well, again, in this case for example, the name West Adams was justified according to Zimas, and if you had put your reference rather than claiming it as fact, it would have helped understand what was going on. The reference is in my initial answer to Alex. I have pointed it out several times. Below I have added emphasis so that you can't miss it. In this case, the LA Times got it completely wrong. "West Adams" is east of Jefferson Park, not west of it. West Adams is a historic neighborhood and is one of the oldest neighborhoods in Los Angeles. The LA Times has no right to rename it as "Adams-Normandie". LA Times is correct. See zimas.lacity.org/There are a dozen unreferenced statements in this thread alone by people other than me. Which is fine, because we are not doing academic research here. For most of us, this forum is not our entire life, but an informal place to share ideas and knowledge. As an example, the original post about Sentous was here: Hey, what about "Sentous" for La Cienega/ Expo? This is the original name after all... Alex claimed that Sentous is the original name for that area. Why didn't you jump all over him for references? Most of my posts claiming things are fully referenced. But neither you nor I post a reference for every statement we make. So why the double standard? I'm not sure what is motivating your constant interruption these threads. But this is not your private forum or blog, and you are not the only person allowed to state any facts or opinions here. Ugh. I will reference the book when I get home. Most people understand that there is knowledge that is not available online, and I can't imagine anyone but you expects me to post references for such things. Until then, here are some related references for you to digest Edit: The book is "Pioneers and entrepreneurs : French immigrants in the making of L.A., 1827-1927", by Lionel Sauvage. There was a exhibit in the Olvera Street area a few years back related to the book.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 9:49:53 GMT -8
Alex claimed that Sentous is the original name for that area. Why didn't you jump all over him for references? His reference was his 2010 Audi and the name Sentous is well-known in Pacific Electric history. Again, slightly tone it down when you claim facts, as you say our lives don't depend on things such as the West Adams community neighborhood, and post references when possible. That's all I'm asking for. I would strongly disagree that I interrupt the threads here when I point out that you're wrong, and I more than welcome and encourage people to post as much as possible on this board. Again, just tone it down slightly. It was fun to watch when you almost beat up Fix Expo in the Cheviot Hills Expo meeting but this is an informal thread and we're all supporting the same cause here, and as you said, our lives don't depend on this. Thanks, I would appreciate the reference.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 9:53:31 GMT -8
His reference was his 2010 Audi and the name Sentous is well-known in Pacific Electric history. No, his original post was: Hey, what about "Sentous" for La Cienega/ Expo? This is the original name after all... BTW, the historic district of West Adams is a well-known part of Los Angeles history as well, but you demanded references for that.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 27, 2010 9:54:20 GMT -8
I would suggest: Existing name | New name | Venice/Robertson | Culver Junction | National/Palms | Palms | Expo/Westwood | Westwood Gardens | Expo/Sepulveda | Home Junction | Expo/Bundy | West Los Angeles | Olympic/26th | Bergamot | Colorado/17th | Memorial Park | Colorado/4th | Santa Monica |
Culver Junction, Palms, West LA, and the stations in Santa Monica are all fine. Westwood Gardens and Home Junction is pretty meaningless. In other countries, the Westwood Blvd station would be named after the closest landmark that people know - i.e. Westwide Pavilion Station. But that clearly won't fly here so this may be one that should stay with the street name. Home Junction is a terrible name. It doesn't tell anyone where the station is, or which part of the city it is located. It is only relevant to rail nerds ;D
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 9:56:53 GMT -8
Westwood Gardens and Home Junction is pretty meaningless. I should point it out though that Westwood Gardens is the official name of the neighborhood that precisely surrounds the Expo/Westwood Station: www.westwoodgardens.net/
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 10:08:56 GMT -8
His reference was his 2010 Audi and the name Sentous is well-known in Pacific Electric history. No, his original post was: Hey, what about "Sentous" for La Cienega/ Expo? This is the original name after all... OK, I was familiar with Sentous quite a bit and I like the idea of using the name for the station. And, also, Alex is cool.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Oct 27, 2010 10:37:53 GMT -8
Well even if everything is not referenced, I appreciate the information anyway as it's interesting. I think the LA Times thing was based on asking local residents their address and what neighborhood they claimed to live in. I disagree with the methodology as people usually lie and claim to live in the closest expensive neighborhood. Anyway, as Sentous is on several maps, do we just abandon it and use a street name, or some amalgamation - or is there any juice behind Sentous? Oh, and thanks for the props Gökhan.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 11:08:26 GMT -8
Oh, and thanks for the props Gökhan. You're most definitely welcome, Alex. Your Expo Phase 2 train-ride video, now at 30,000 views, was a groundbreaking sensation.
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K 22
Full Member
Posts: 117
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Post by K 22 on Oct 27, 2010 13:15:31 GMT -8
I figure 17th/Colorado would actually be "Santa Monica Memorial Park" since there's already a "Memorial Park".
On a semi-related note, I may be on the outside looking in and all, but I really don't get the "street 1/street 2" naming convention on lines that stay on one street for most of its trek. Like the Purple Line, after Wilshire/Vermont station - is the "Wilshire" part of the name really necessary?
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 27, 2010 14:26:40 GMT -8
On a semi-related note, I may be on the outside looking in and all, but I really don't get the "street 1/street 2" naming convention on lines that stay on one street for most of its trek. Every station in the Metro Rail system is unique within the system. This helps prevent confusion both within the Metro organization and in the public. A good example is "Crenshaw". Yes, if you only ride the Expo Line, you will know that "Crenshaw" means "Crenshaw/Expo". But suppose you report a problem at "Crenshaw station". You look at the station pylon, and all its says is "Crenshaw". That's not enough information for Metro staff or police to identify which line (Expo or Green Line) is having the problem. Plus, there will eventually be many Crenshaw stations. Yes they could name every station by a street plus the line it's on ("Slauson Blue Line station"), but this fully-qualified name is even longer than using the cross streets. And if the name of the line changes (or the station is served by more than one line), you can get into more confusion (for example, "Pico Blue Line" is the same as "Pico Expo Line"). Most stations in New York have unique names, but a few must be distinguished by the name of the physical line (an extreme example is 23rd Street station, which refers to six different stations on six different lines). As L.A.'s system grows, I suspect that more stations will be given neighborhood names to replace the cumbersome cross street names. "Memorial Park" would be a problem, since their is already a Memorial Park station. Ditto for "Civic Center" (although I haven't seen anything from Santa Monica requesting that name).
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andop2
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Post by andop2 on Oct 27, 2010 15:01:47 GMT -8
"Memorial Park" would be a problem, since their is already a Memorial Park station. Ditto for "Civic Center" (although I haven't seen anything from Santa Monica requesting that name). Since there are three Santa Monica stations, it would be clearer if the terminus was "Downtown Santa Monica" or even better "Santa Monica Bayside." "Bayside District" is the official name for the downtown/Promenade section of the city from the Ocean to 5th Street (I believe). Also, the Culver City station should be just that: "Culver City" rather than the more obscure "Culver Junction," IMHO
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 15:20:49 GMT -8
"Memorial Park" would be a problem, since their is already a Memorial Park station. Ditto for "Civic Center" (although I haven't seen anything from Santa Monica requesting that name). Since there are three Santa Monica stations, it would be clearer if the terminus was "Downtown Santa Monica" or even better "Santa Monica Bayside." "Bayside District" is the official name for the downtown/Promenade section of the city from the Ocean to 5th Street (I believe). Also, the Culver City station should be just that: "Culver City" rather than the more obscure "Culver Junction," IMHO Downtown Santa Monica sounds good. It's probably best to leave 17th St as 17th St. It's a block from the park anyway. It's a pity that they didn't build the Pasadena Station in the Old Town but built it at Memorial Park instead. Metro probably had a deal with the developer. It's sort of like the deal they have with Casden now. Pico/Sawtelle would otherwise be a better location than Sepulveda.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Oct 27, 2010 15:23:34 GMT -8
This makes a lot of sense. Granted, some of the names we're tossing around seem arcane - but that's only because they aren't currently being used.
I like the fact that we already have unique, historical names for each station. To go through and come up with "new" names based on what our respective feelings are about a neighborhood today could be a frustrating exercise and they will be just as arcane in 50 years.
I really think this is a good argument for using the historical names of the original stations. Call Bergamot station Bergamot Station for goodness sake!
From a psychological perspective, people will remember them and identify with them better.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 15:27:43 GMT -8
In addition to the name Home Junction, Talamantes is another name for the historical stop at Expo/Sepulveda. Apparently the Talamantes family was another rich land owner in the 19th century. The section of the Expo right-of-way west of Military is still registered under the name Lauriano Talamantes in NavigateLA. I'm guessing the same for the Sentous family. They probably owned the section of the right-of-way near La Cienega in the late 19th or early 20th centuries. Here are some library links. Here is a great history page, written by Jonathan Weiss of Cheviot Hills, an Expo supporter and local historian: cheviothills.org/Ranchos.htmOn that page these names are given, who were the original owners of the Expo right-of-way (along with the rest of the west section of Los Angeles). Their names are still shown in the parcel maps: In the partition of May 14, 1868, those who received allotments were: John D. Young George A. Sanford Elenda Young Addison Rose Willis G. Prather Macedonio Aguilar Benina Talamantes Estate of Augustin Machado Gregoria Talamantes Tomasa Talamantes Pedro Talamantes Jacinto Talamantes
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Post by matthewb on Oct 27, 2010 16:24:29 GMT -8
This makes a lot of sense. Granted, some of the names we're tossing around seem arcane - but that's only because they aren't currently being used. I like the fact that we already have unique, historical names for each station. To go through and come up with "new" names based on what our respective feelings are about a neighborhood today could be a frustrating exercise and they will be just as arcane in 50 years. I really think this is a good argument for using the historical names of the original stations. Call Bergamot station Bergamot Station for goodness sake! From a psychological perspective, people will remember them and identify with them better. With regards to Culver Junction, if it's not a junction anymore it doesn't much make sense to use that name. I would rather support Culver City, though that would have to change in the event of a Venice Blvd transit line. I think Bergamot Station would be fantastic, especially since the name is still being used for the arts center and is already a landmark in Santa Monica.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 27, 2010 16:42:44 GMT -8
Westwood Gardens and Home Junction is pretty meaningless. I should point it out though that Westwood Gardens is the official name of the neighborhood that precisely surrounds the Expo/Westwood Station: www.westwoodgardens.net/I understand that is the case but everyone and their mother will be referring to that station as the one next to Westside Pavilion
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 27, 2010 17:47:42 GMT -8
I should point it out though that Westwood Gardens is the official name of the neighborhood that precisely surrounds the Expo/Westwood Station: www.westwoodgardens.net/I understand that is the case but everyone and their mother will be referring to that station as the one next to Westside Pavilion Since this station's primary purpose is to serve UCLA and Century City via Westwood Boulevard, Westside Pavilion wouldn't be an appropriate name. Expo/Westwood and Westwood Gardens are both more suitable names, as they have Westwood in it. But Westside Pavilion is 5 minutes walk from the station, and it will be a nice attraction. People can certainly refer to it as the station by Westside Pavilion if they wish. I personally like to refer to Westside Pavilion as the Railroad Mall instead.
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Post by wad on Oct 28, 2010 4:07:13 GMT -8
I personally like to refer to Westside Pavilion as the Railroad Mall instead. I think the downtown Santa Rosa mall got first dibs on that.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 29, 2010 17:53:39 GMT -8
I noticed curiously the large piles of granular filling material on the Expo right-of-way between Bagley and Venice/Robertson. Since Phase 1 construction is finished, I'm guessing these are for the Phase 2 section of the aerial structure that will go across Venice Blvd and then ramp down on retained fill.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Nov 16, 2010 11:20:52 GMT -8
I heard from a friend who lives near the line that the expo tunnel under the 10 in Rancho Park had some work being done on it a few months ago. I checked it out this weekend and sure enough, the fences and gates had all been repaired or replaced - closing off all means of access.
Prior to this the tunnel fencing was falling apart and there were many holes.
However, that tell tale smell of fresh spray paint was in the air and I peered into the tunnel and saw a few kids painting away on the walls. They started to run when they saw me, but I yelled out to them and told them to relax, I just wanted to know how they got in.
"Oh" they said. "You can just lift up the fencing over there." and pointed to an area about 12 feet off the ground that you can reach by climbing! They certainly are motivated!
I asked if they knew their art area would soon be put back in use as a train tunnel. They all knew about it and commented it was "a travesty" and they were trying to get as much use out of it as a canvas before they were forced to stop.
A travesty indeed! Where will they go, I wonder?
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 16, 2010 11:33:18 GMT -8
Oh, what a travesty. How dare they use this tunnel for a train, rather than for this "street art" that only the most adventurous and athletic can see!
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 16, 2010 11:34:36 GMT -8
I asked if they knew their art area would soon be put back in use as a train tunnel. They all knew about it and commented it was "a travesty" and they were trying to get as much use out of it as a canvas before they were forced to stop. A travesty indeed! Where will they go, I wonder? So, they were opposed to the train. Now, in addition to the Cheviot Hills NIMBYs, we've got the vandal NIMBYs. Perhaps they will form a new group: Vandals for Smart Rail.
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dane
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by dane on Nov 16, 2010 12:10:45 GMT -8
However, that tell tale smell of fresh spray paint was in the air and I peered into the tunnel and saw a few kids painting away on the walls. They started to run when they saw me, but I yelled out to them and told them to relax, I just wanted to know how they got in. "Oh" they said. "You can just lift up the fencing over there." and pointed to an area about 12 feet off the ground that you can reach by climbing! They certainly are motivated!
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