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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Oct 11, 2013 12:29:31 GMT -8
Escalators that are exposed to the elements have very high service costs, perhaps no budget? In any case, those that have a problem will be able to use Palms in short order. Not too far away. Here in Berlin very few U-Bahn or S-Bahn stations have anything. It's all stairs baby, and they're less fat here. Maybe Metro is trying to tell us something?
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Post by culvercitylocke on Oct 11, 2013 13:10:30 GMT -8
I kinda love the stairs at the Culver and La Cienega station? but I'm weird like that.
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Post by TransportationZ on Oct 11, 2013 14:21:40 GMT -8
Escalators that are exposed to the elements have very high service costs, perhaps no budget? In any case, those that have a problem will be able to use Palms in short order. Not too far away. Considering the way the contractor was milking Expo phase 1, probably anything that could be cut to save some cash was cut. That's nice. Does Berlin want a cookie? In all seriousness, this is a modern system, not 100 years old. Escalators are the standard.(Or at least should be) Also, that's a bad correlation, since most people in America use cars. Escalators in transit stations aren't making people fat. Elevators are mandatory from ADA. That being said, I usually don't mind stairs if the escalators are crowded. Its the time when I either tired or a train is about leave that the long stairs particularly a pain in the rear. Also, the steps seem to be a little bit more difficult to climb than other lines. I think the steps are higher.
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Post by masonite on Oct 11, 2013 15:14:58 GMT -8
Escalators that are exposed to the elements have very high service costs, perhaps no budget? In any case, those that have a problem will be able to use Palms in short order. Not too far away. Considering the way the contractor was milking Expo phase 1, probably anything that could be cut to save some cash was cut. That's nice. Does Berlin want a cookie? In all seriousness, this is a modern system, not 100 years old. Escalators are the standard.(Or at least should be) Also, that's a bad correlation, since most people in America use cars. Escalators in transit stations aren't making people fat. Elevators are mandatory from ADA. That being said, I usually don't mind stairs if the escalators are crowded. Its the time when I either tired or a train is about leave that the long stairs particularly a pain in the rear. Also, the steps seem to be a little bit more difficult to climb than other lines. I think the steps are higher. It is all a matter of cost. If fares had to be raised a quarter to pay for all these costly escalators, I doubt there would be much of a call for them. Our light rail system is already very cost inefficient with a cost recovery ratio of just about 20% vs. 35% for the subway. Sure they would be nice, but you have to employ a full team of engineers just to keep these things running as they breakdown all the time, and the maintenance is really expensive.
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Post by jamesinclair on Oct 12, 2013 16:17:36 GMT -8
"Looking north on Westwood Blvd before the trees are cut down for street widening in order to accommodate an at-grade crossing on this very busy street"
Metro: 2 steps forward, 5 steps back
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Post by TransportationZ on Oct 12, 2013 17:08:03 GMT -8
Considering the way the contractor was milking Expo phase 1, probably anything that could be cut to save some cash was cut. That's nice. Does Berlin want a cookie? In all seriousness, this is a modern system, not 100 years old. Escalators are the standard.(Or at least should be) Also, that's a bad correlation, since most people in America use cars. Escalators in transit stations aren't making people fat. Elevators are mandatory from ADA. That being said, I usually don't mind stairs if the escalators are crowded. Its the time when I either tired or a train is about leave that the long stairs particularly a pain in the rear. Also, the steps seem to be a little bit more difficult to climb than other lines. I think the steps are higher. It is all a matter of cost. If fares had to be raised a quarter to pay for all these costly escalators, I doubt there would be much of a call for them. Our light rail system is already very cost inefficient with a cost recovery ratio of just about 20% vs. 35% for the subway. Sure they would be nice, but you have to employ a full team of engineers just to keep these things running as they breakdown all the time, and the maintenance is really expensive. From your post, by "cost inefficient" you seem to refer to the entire light rail system. Surely if were to look at the Blue and Expo Lines alone, the "cost efficiency" would be higher. We are talking about the 2nd highest ridership per mile light rail line here, not the Gold Line. And don't even get me started about when the line gets to Santa Monica. I agree that its expensive, but I think your added cost is a bit exaggerated. Measures could be taken to make it less expensive. I'm sure maintaining the escalators to entrance of red line stations have been much easier after the new shelters are in-place. A fare increase just because of some escalators? To possibly one of the busiest lines in the system? Come on.
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Post by masonite on Oct 12, 2013 21:35:33 GMT -8
It is all a matter of cost. If fares had to be raised a quarter to pay for all these costly escalators, I doubt there would be much of a call for them. Our light rail system is already very cost inefficient with a cost recovery ratio of just about 20% vs. 35% for the subway. Sure they would be nice, but you have to employ a full team of engineers just to keep these things running as they breakdown all the time, and the maintenance is really expensive. From your post, by "cost inefficient" you seem to refer to the entire light rail system. Surely if were to look at the Blue and Expo Lines alone, the "cost efficiency" would be higher. We are talking about the 2nd highest ridership per mile light rail line here, not the Gold Line. And don't even get me started about when the line gets to Santa Monica. I agree that its expensive, but I think your added cost is a bit exaggerated. Measures could be taken to make it less expensive. I'm sure maintaining the escalators to entrance of red line stations have been much easier after the new shelters are in-place. A fare increase just because of some escalators? To possibly one of the busiest lines in the system? Come on. Yes, you can get an idea as to how much the maintenance of the escalators are by the fact that Metro spent many millions to construct the shelters to help protect the Red Line escalators from the elements. We are on the edge of needing a fare increase anyway. An increase in costs would just throw it over the top, and this ongoing cost is not insignificant. Outside escalators are very expensive to maintain. The point is we are already living over our means on the service vs. the cost and demanding additional services does not come without cost. On light rail vs. the Red/Purple Line cost recovery ratios, you may think Expo and the Blue Line are very efficient, but they are really not, especially when compared to the subway. You have many more stations and they are stations that are exposed to the elements and vandals, each 3 car train even if full can only hold a fraction of what a 6 car subway train can (i.e. less than half) even though they each have one operator, there is more track and track and overhead catenary that is exposed to the elements, each line pretty much has to have its own maintenance facility vs. just one for the subway, there is landscaping, fencing, and grade crossings and gates, more safety issues and outreach due to all the crossings, there are more instances of trees and cars compromising the system. Oh, add to the fact that the subway is now gated vs. the light rail system which will have few gated stations outside the Green Line even when the gates are latched there. I know people see a full train and they think wow, Metro must really be raking in the money here, but when you have all the above costs it doesn't add up and unfortunately light rail is the prime culprit in bringing down Metro's overall cost recovery ratio (even more than the bus system).
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Post by skater on Oct 13, 2013 12:19:57 GMT -8
^Interesting...I always thought the subway stations cost more to maintain than an at grade station. Ventilation, elevators, escalators, more lighting, etc. And the ROW, I thought that all the lighting in the subway tunnels must cost a lot to maintain. Anyhow, I guess the per passenger cost is less on the red/purple lines because of the heavy ridership. Alos, it seems as more trains are run for more frequent service, it won't cost more for tunnel and station lighting, and elevator and escalators. This should be pointed out to those who think subways are too extravagant and we should only build light rail. As for the lack of escalators at culver city, I personally don't have a problem with it, because there are always elevators, and the importance of this stop will decrease once phase 2 comes in.
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Post by TransportationZ on Oct 13, 2013 12:48:24 GMT -8
From your post, by "cost inefficient" you seem to refer to the entire light rail system. Surely if were to look at the Blue and Expo Lines alone, the "cost efficiency" would be higher. We are talking about the 2nd highest ridership per mile light rail line here, not the Gold Line. And don't even get me started about when the line gets to Santa Monica. I agree that its expensive, but I think your added cost is a bit exaggerated. Measures could be taken to make it less expensive. I'm sure maintaining the escalators to entrance of red line stations have been much easier after the new shelters are in-place. A fare increase just because of some escalators? To possibly one of the busiest lines in the system? Come on. Yes, you can get an idea as to how much the maintenance of the escalators are by the fact that Metro spent many millions to construct the shelters to help protect the Red Line escalators from the elements. We are on the edge of needing a fare increase anyway. An increase in costs would just throw it over the top, and this ongoing cost is not insignificant. Outside escalators are very expensive to maintain. The point is we are already living over our means on the service vs. the cost and demanding additional services does not come without cost. On light rail vs. the Red/Purple Line cost recovery ratios, you may think Expo and the Blue Line are very efficient, but they are really not, especially when compared to the subway. You have many more stations and they are stations that are exposed to the elements and vandals, each 3 car train even if full can only hold a fraction of what a 6 car subway train can (i.e. less than half) even though they each have one operator, there is more track and track and overhead catenary that is exposed to the elements, each line pretty much has to have its own maintenance facility vs. just one for the subway, there is landscaping, fencing, and grade crossings and gates, more safety issues and outreach due to all the crossings, there are more instances of trees and cars compromising the system. Oh, add to the fact that the subway is now gated vs. the light rail system which will have few gated stations outside the Green Line even when the gates are latched there. I know people see a full train and they think wow, Metro must really be raking in the money here, but when you have all the above costs it doesn't add up and unfortunately light rail is the prime culprit in bringing down Metro's overall cost recovery ratio (even more than the bus system). Fair enough. So basically: Light Rail - lower initial capital cost, higher operating costs Subway - Higher initial Capital cost, lower operating costs However, I think the Subway wins in this case mostly because the Red Line moves 8,000 people per mile. I'm sure if light rail was pulling those kind of numbers, it would be much closer. Especially if escalators are indeed so expensive, where there are SEVERAL escalators for EACH Red/Purple Line station. With that said, this also doesn't explain why Subway stations, including LIGHT RAIL subway stations, automatically get escalators, nor why the Gold Line Chinatown station got escalators.
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Post by joshuanickel on Oct 13, 2013 14:31:04 GMT -8
If you look at the placement of the staircases in relation of the platform, the stairs are not centered. They are placed off to the side. The reason for this is to leave room for an escalator if Metro wanted to install one later. At one point, I saw a station plan that noted the gap is for future escalators. There are two staircases at each station, one on each end. I assume when escalators were put in, one end would go up and the other end would go down.
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Post by masonite on Oct 13, 2013 19:50:23 GMT -8
^Interesting...I always thought the subway stations cost more to maintain than an at grade station. Ventilation, elevators, escalators, more lighting, etc. And the ROW, I thought that all the lighting in the subway tunnels must cost a lot to maintain. Anyhow, I guess the per passenger cost is less on the red/purple lines because of the heavy ridership. Alos, it seems as more trains are run for more frequent service, it won't cost more for tunnel and station lighting, and elevator and escalators. This should be pointed out to those who think subways are too extravagant and we should only build light rail. As for the lack of escalators at culver city, I personally don't have a problem with it, because there are always elevators, and the importance of this stop will decrease once phase 2 comes in. Just comparing the underground station vs above ground maintenance you may get a higher cost for the underground stations, but all the other factors I mentioned broadly tip the factors. Also, you have many more light rail stations vs underground subway stations.
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Post by masonite on Oct 13, 2013 19:56:52 GMT -8
Yes, you can get an idea as to how much the maintenance of the escalators are by the fact that Metro spent many millions to construct the shelters to help protect the Red Line escalators from the elements. We are on the edge of needing a fare increase anyway. An increase in costs would just throw it over the top, and this ongoing cost is not insignificant. Outside escalators are very expensive to maintain. The point is we are already living over our means on the service vs. the cost and demanding additional services does not come without cost. On light rail vs. the Red/Purple Line cost recovery ratios, you may think Expo and the Blue Line are very efficient, but they are really not, especially when compared to the subway. You have many more stations and they are stations that are exposed to the elements and vandals, each 3 car train even if full can only hold a fraction of what a 6 car subway train can (i.e. less than half) even though they each have one operator, there is more track and track and overhead catenary that is exposed to the elements, each line pretty much has to have its own maintenance facility vs. just one for the subway, there is landscaping, fencing, and grade crossings and gates, more safety issues and outreach due to all the crossings, there are more instances of trees and cars compromising the system. Oh, add to the fact that the subway is now gated vs. the light rail system which will have few gated stations outside the Green Line even when the gates are latched there. I know people see a full train and they think wow, Metro must really be raking in the money here, but when you have all the above costs it doesn't add up and unfortunately light rail is the prime culprit in bringing down Metro's overall cost recovery ratio (even more than the bus system). Fair enough. So basically: Light Rail - lower initial capital cost, higher operating costs Subway - Higher initial Capital cost, lower operating costs However, I think the Subway wins in this case mostly because the Red Line moves 8,000 people per mile. I'm sure if light rail was pulling those kind of numbers, it would be much closer. Especially if escalators are indeed so expensive, where there are SEVERAL escalators for EACH Red/Purple Line station. With that said, this also doesn't explain why Subway stations, including LIGHT RAIL subway stations, automatically get escalators, nor why the Gold Line Chinatown station got escalators. I think our underground stations are pretty deep, so that would be quite a difference from going up the stairs at a station like Culver City. Good point on the Chinatown Station. My guess is that they did cut it more for heir tight capital budget on Expo than for maintenance but who knows.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 14, 2013 10:42:38 GMT -8
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f ron
Full Member
Posts: 222
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Post by f ron on Oct 14, 2013 15:12:45 GMT -8
No sign of any falsework errected over Pico as of today. Notice of the work commencement was scheduled for October 6 and completing on the 31st. I wonder if the hold-up is related to the troublesome columns or if they're just plain behind schedule?
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 14, 2013 21:33:43 GMT -8
No sign of any falsework errected over Pico as of today. Notice of the work commencement was scheduled for October 6 and completing on the 31st. I wonder if the hold-up is related to the troublesome columns or if they're just plain behind schedule? Probably because of the faulty foundation. This is the only problem they are having with the project so far. Looking forward to seeing the Motor Ave and Venice Blvd Bridges soon.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 16, 2013 10:02:36 GMT -8
Sign at Westwood/Expo is advising periodic closing of Westwood Blvd this weekend. Maybe they are doing rail crossing installation/construction?
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Post by rajacobs on Oct 16, 2013 11:56:04 GMT -8
I'm waiting for that milestone. ...It's been a long-time coming. The phase I track crossing milestones happened relatively early. Phase II seems to have taken longer. Here's hoping it's starting now.
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f ron
Full Member
Posts: 222
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Post by f ron on Oct 16, 2013 15:00:34 GMT -8
There were a pair of surveyors at the Overland crossing this morning. It's possible that the crossings may be coming. That said, both Westwood and Overland need to be widened and I wonder if that work will come first? I haven't walked down Westwood in almost a week but Overland has all kinds of green spraypaint along the curbs and parkway area. Indicators that the street widening may be imminent. Of course they'll need to tear out all those beautiful trees before they can do that. So what's the sequence? Curbs and widening before track crossing or vise-versa? Also, there's sewer work to be done on newly widened streets. I'm skeptical the crossings on Westwood and Overland are any time soon.
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Post by RMoses on Oct 16, 2013 15:18:05 GMT -8
There were a pair of surveyors at the Overland crossing this morning. It's possible that the crossings may be coming. That said, both Westwood and Overland need to be widened and I wonder if that work will come first? I haven't walked down Westwood in almost a week but Overland has all kinds of green spraypaint along the curbs and parkway area. Indicators that the street widening may be imminent. Of course they'll need to tear out all those beautiful trees before they can do that. So what's the sequence? Curbs and widening before track crossing or vise-versa? Also, there's sewer work to be done on newly widened streets. I'm skeptical the crossings on Westwood and Overland are any time soon. Street work will take place before tracks are placed.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 16, 2013 21:47:25 GMT -8
There were a pair of surveyors at the Overland crossing this morning. It's possible that the crossings may be coming. That said, both Westwood and Overland need to be widened and I wonder if that work will come first? I haven't walked down Westwood in almost a week but Overland has all kinds of green spraypaint along the curbs and parkway area. Indicators that the street widening may be imminent. Of course they'll need to tear out all those beautiful trees before they can do that. So what's the sequence? Curbs and widening before track crossing or vise-versa? Also, there's sewer work to be done on newly widened streets. I'm skeptical the crossings on Westwood and Overland are any time soon. Street work will take place before tracks are placed. Streets could be easily rebuilt around installed at-grade crossings. An at-grade crossing is basically just some rail, ties, and ballast, with the ties and ballast covered with at-grade-crossing slabs. They can completely rebuild the street around them by excavating everything around them. In fact, that's exactly what they did in Phase 1. However, I don't know how they will proceed in Phase 2.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 17, 2013 14:01:52 GMT -8
Clarington Ave TPSS progress. They brought the LADWP metering unit and installed it with a large crane yesterday. You can see in the foreground the forms for the foundation of the main unit that will contain the transformer, rectifier, switchgear, etc.: Today: You can see the end connection of the Venice Blvd Bridge. The new bridge will sit on the old bridge through and L-shaped joint. There will be foam between the two bridges, to fill the gap. This is probably to allow some static and dynamic movement, helping with thermal expansion and removing the forces of vibrations: Forms are on today: Work inside the forms: Other (south) side: Yesterday: Today: Yesterday: Today: Yesterday: Today:
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 18, 2013 9:09:36 GMT -8
The "Motor Yard" graffiti artists, who were using the Palms Overhead freeway tunnel and the retaining walls nearby as a canvas have been mad at Metro and the Expo Line for driving them out. Could anyone decipher what they wrote on the forms of the Motor Ave Bridge?
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Post by rajacobs on Oct 18, 2013 10:26:32 GMT -8
...A don't think the pictures above represent work by "graffiti artists." I think there are at least two groups. I've met graffiti artists who were at work in and around the tunnel before work began. ...Intelligent guys (and a girl I think) who enjoyed having very large canvases to play with.
On the other hand, I've seen graffiti, like what's depicted above, on switch boxes, the sides of other bridges in the area, telephone polls. These guys (assumption on my part) are better defined as "vandals" and don't share much with the first group.
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Post by bzcat on Oct 18, 2013 10:36:05 GMT -8
That looks like the work of taggers, not graffiti artist.
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Post by rajacobs on Oct 18, 2013 10:37:36 GMT -8
"Taggers" ...better word! Thanks, bzcat.
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Post by RMoses on Oct 18, 2013 12:15:22 GMT -8
That looks like the work of taggers, not graffiti artist. Yes, not artists IMO. With the many interlopers in and amongst the Northvale Trench vicinity I wonder if the first causality will be feline or homo sapien?
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 18, 2013 13:40:07 GMT -8
That looks like the work of taggers, not graffiti artist. Yes, not artists IMO. With the many interlopers in and amongst the Northvale Trench vicinity I wonder if the first causality will be feline or homo sapien? Let's hope nothing feline or hominid gets run over, as well as no creature of any other kind (squirrels, coyotes, opossums, raccoons, pigeons, crows, hummingbirds, etc.)
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Post by joshuanickel on Oct 18, 2013 14:36:04 GMT -8
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 18, 2013 14:37:34 GMT -8
This means rail installation (between crossings) should soon follow if not come earlier.
My earlier prediction that the street construction would come later proved right.
As always, they are starting with the installation of the most controversial at-grade crossings first.
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Post by darrell on Oct 18, 2013 19:04:48 GMT -8
This means rail installation (between crossings) should soon follow if not come earlier. My earlier prediction that the street construction would come later proved right. As always, they are starting with the installation of the most controversial at-grade crossings first. Talk about a major milestone - the two most-fought crossings installed, after so many years.
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