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Post by mattapoisett on May 14, 2007 21:03:40 GMT -8
Being in Culver City I don't have opportunity to ride the rails much [yet], but Sunday my girlfriend, her brother, parents and I boarded the Gold Line at Lincoln Heights to get to Hollywood. In the 4 segments we took, there was no sign anywhere that anyone was checking tickets. Is this normal or is this just a fluke of not seeing MTA looking for proof of payment. Could this affect ridership numbers on the rails because if no one is checking tickets, people might not buy them.
Take Care
- P.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on May 14, 2007 22:23:45 GMT -8
It's a very random process. In the 20 months I've been riding the Red Line every weekday, I've only been checked less than a dozen times, this includes in trains during transit and at the North Hollywood station. On the Orange Line it's even rare, I've only been checked twice in the bus in the same 20 month period, three times each at the North Hollywood and Van Nuys station. I rarely ride the Blue Line, but more than 70% of the time, I do get checked. I barely ride both the Green and Gold Lines, and have never been checked on both.
In comparison to Metrolink, for the Orange County Line, they check mostly upon leaving Union Station.
For Metro Rail and Metro Liner, catching and fining ($250) one fare evader can make up the difference of 83 fare evaders (who evades the $3 day pass cost each).
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Post by bluelineshawn on May 15, 2007 11:54:15 GMT -8
As Tony said it's random, but don't worry because I don't think that they use ticket sales exclusively (or at all?) to calculate the ridership numbers. Too many people (most of the riders) use monthly passes for that to be reliable.
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Post by roadtrainer on May 15, 2007 21:10:42 GMT -8
When I used to drive for the Metro, I would check for Day passes and transferes. Many a day people would cheat the Metro by having "one way tickets"and try to use them äs a day pass. Then the people who use the Access pass wouldn't show thier passes or get mad when you ask for it, and when you ask them why didn't your friend pay a fare, they would get indignet, and proceed to tell you off and want to report you for being a "Prick" because you questioned them about thier attendant. The ones who are about the best in showing you thier passes are the senior citizens and the Russian Imagrints of West Holywood. (You don't want them to walk arouind the bus when it is motion but they do and show you their pass and Say "Meesstteerr- here is mae passey". Sincerely The Road Trainer
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Post by Elson on May 21, 2007 17:27:30 GMT -8
I spent last week in Portland for five days and bought five day passes there for their transit system. I only saw fare inspectors once, and in my train (a low-ridership late night (midnight) train), two people got cited for not having tickets.
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Post by mattapoisett on May 22, 2007 17:12:14 GMT -8
We just got back from Vegas, and I made it a point to ride the Monorail. Ignoring the fact the fare is too high, they had gated access to the platforms, with no one manning them. On the Deuce, All passengers must enter through the driver's door confirm or pay the fare. I've lived in Boston, DC and SF and been to NYC and Chi-town and all have Fare verification systems in Place. If NYC was recouping more than 60% of operations with out token takers I'd leave this topic alone.
With The Mayor and Governor juggling the budgets making no one happy, it might be a thought to make sure fares are coming in.
Take Care
- P.
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Post by dasubergeek on Jul 10, 2007 10:20:39 GMT -8
Hey, mattapoisett! Fancy meeting you here instead of on Chowhound!
I ride Metrolink to and from work, and I'm going to make a wild guess and say I get my ticket checked maybe once a month... and I take four trains a day. I also never have to show any ticket on the Glendale Beeline -- they just assume everyone boarding the #12 line at the Burbank Transportation Hub is a Metrolink ticketholder with an E-Z Transit Pass.
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Post by mattapoisett on Jul 10, 2007 12:20:01 GMT -8
Welcome to my other obsession. Dommy! is for the most part bemused by this facet of my life. My biggest issue is un-scarring her from youthful experience on the RTD. She still won't take a bus. But things will be much better when the Expo line comes to our hood.
Take Care.
- P.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jul 10, 2007 13:37:48 GMT -8
Hey, mattapoisett! Fancy meeting you here instead of on Chowhound! I ride Metrolink to and from work, and I'm going to make a wild guess and say I get my ticket checked maybe once a month... and I take four trains a day. I also never have to show any ticket on the Glendale Beeline -- they just assume everyone boarding the #12 line at the Burbank Transportation Hub is a Metrolink ticketholder with an E-Z Transit Pass. I was wondering about that. I rode the OC metrolink line for almost a month and was never checked for a ticket. Similarly I rode the OCTA metrolink shuttle and even though I was the only non-regular I was never asked for a ticket. |
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Post by damiengoodmon on Jul 10, 2007 23:47:48 GMT -8
It's a very random process. In the 20 months I've been riding the Red Line every weekday, I've only been checked less than a dozen times, this includes in trains during transit and at the North Hollywood station. On the Orange Line it's even rare, I've only been checked twice in the bus in the same 20 month period, three times each at the North Hollywood and Van Nuys station. I rarely ride the Blue Line, but more than 70% of the time, I do get checked. I barely ride both the Green and Gold Lines, and have never been checked on both. My assessment is similar to yours. I now frequently take the Green Line (at least 8 times a week). Over the past 3 months I've been checked on the Green line ONCE! In the past few weeks I've been taking the Blue line more frequently (up to 3-5 times a week) or board the Green Line at Rosa Parks. I think I've been checked three times on the Blue line in the last few weeks or at Rosa Parks, and I see the fare checkers at about once every 3 or 4 trips when I take the line (so about 25-33% of the trips). Which brings me to the most important point I want to make: when I typically see a fare checker, they're not checking fares! That's on any line, but especially the Red/Purple. I don't think I've ever been checked, and I've ridden the subway no less than 100 times in the past 3 years. |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jul 11, 2007 11:26:47 GMT -8
They check more on the blue line for some reason. I don't think that it's anywhere near 70%. Maybe 20%. I don't know what the reason is. I don't see a higher ration of fare evaders getting caught than on the other lines. They even check on the blue line very early in the morning when it's just barely light out.
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Post by masonite on Mar 1, 2012 12:22:19 GMT -8
I know people here disagree, especially the Transit Coalition, but we really do need to either lock the gates or have some better fare verifcation. The current system just does not work. I know there is some estimate that we are only losing a few million a year, but I think that is low. Also, it breeds a system where people think no one is paying so why should I. It also breeds a sense of lawlessness and no one cares or is watching. When they have locked the gates, the fare collection has soared. The Transit Coalition attributes this to people paying twice, which makes no sense to me. In 15 years of riding (albeit only occassionally) I have only been checked twice by fare inspectors. I was eating dinner with some upper middle class professionals the other day, and one guy said he never buys tickets. He was stopped by a fare inspector once at Union Station but said he was in a hurry to catch his Flyaway bus so the inspector let him go. Granted this scared him into buying tickets now, but if someone relatively wealthy isn't going to buy tickets, why would the mostly poor who ride the system not risk it if you are short on cash or change. With a TAP card, it is easy to simply "forget" to TAP. Fare gates are not going to solve everything and will create new problems, but if we are ever going to have distance based fares (which we will need with the Connector and enormous Gold Line) this has to be done. I would still like to see some sort of station attendant at many of the stations even with fare gates, although I realize this would be expensive. Our stations are getting so busy and this would cut down on crime, fare evasion, and littering. Not every station needs to be covered, but we should at least rove station attendants between some stations. After all we had homeless encampments in one of the Hollywood Red Line stations not too long ago. You think this happens in DC where they have station attendants. The anything goes has to end with so many people now using the system. www.dailynews.com/opinions/ci_20073850 |
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Post by matthewb on Mar 1, 2012 15:22:50 GMT -8
After all we had homeless encampments in one of the Hollywood Red Line stations not too long ago. You think this happens in DC where they have station attendants. I've only occasionally used the system in DC. I can say, however, that Paris has station attendants and fare gates, but still has homeless encampments and wide scale fare evasion. German systems, however, are largely proof of payment and don't really suffer from those problems. I think it might be as much about the economics and culture of a city than which fare enforcement system is used that determines these kinds of outcomes. |
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Post by masonite on Mar 1, 2012 15:35:33 GMT -8
After all we had homeless encampments in one of the Hollywood Red Line stations not too long ago. You think this happens in DC where they have station attendants. I've only occasionally used the system in DC. I can say, however, that Paris has station attendants and fare gates, but still has homeless encampments and wide scale fare evasion. German systems, however, are largely proof of payment and don't really suffer from those problems. I think it might be as much about the economics and culture of a city than which fare enforcement system is used that determines these kinds of outcomes. Certainly, you still have to have law enforcement for gate jumping and so forth. Of course, we had the homeless encampment, because they didn't know it was there. Maybe in Paris they just ignore it, but a station attendant can call police if there is a problem. |
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Post by jamesinclair on Mar 3, 2012 2:52:33 GMT -8
I've only occasionally used the system in DC. I can say, however, that Paris has station attendants and fare gates, but still has homeless encampments and wide scale fare evasion. German systems, however, are largely proof of payment and don't really suffer from those problems. I think it might be as much about the economics and culture of a city than which fare enforcement system is used that determines these kinds of outcomes. Yup, pairs has turnstiles AND gates blocking them, but people STILL jump them. AND thats with roaming fare inspectors. I was checked twice in the 4 days I was in Paris, btw. Switzerland has not a single gate or turnstile, yet theres almost zero fare evasion, and the checks are rare. I was checked once in the week I was there. |
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Post by matthewb on Mar 3, 2012 4:22:35 GMT -8
Yup, pairs has turnstiles AND gates blocking them, but people STILL jump them. AND thats with roaming fare inspectors. I was checked twice in the 4 days I was in Paris, btw. Switzerland has not a single gate or turnstile, yet theres almost zero fare evasion, and the checks are rare. I was checked once in the week I was there. I've lived in Germany, England, and France, and I can say that Paris is by far the worst. Germany had proof of payment while England had fare gates that were usually locked. Neither of those places seemed to have substantial fare evasion. I was shocked by comparison when I moved to Paris and saw the huge numbers of people jumping the turnstiles. This is despite the fact that the Paris metro costs substantially less than public transportation in Germany and England. I imagine that higher prices (along with some other social innovations that ensure a basic quality of life) might in fact lead to lower levels of fare evasion. Stealing just over 1 euro (substitute dollars for LA) might not seem like a big deal, but 3 euro might make people think a little bit more before doing it. Anyway, I would much prefer a system that charges higher prices by default, gives a higher quality of service/comfort, and then has a system of discounts for low-income/youth/elderly riders. Fare inspectors could then demand to see a ticket, and discount tickets would be invalid unless accompanied by a photo ID card that indicated the rider was eligible for the discount. |
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Post by Justin Walker on Mar 5, 2012 12:15:53 GMT -8
I've lived in Germany, England, and France, and I can say that Paris is by far the worst. Germany had proof of payment while England had fare gates that were usually locked. Neither of those places seemed to have substantial fare evasion. I was shocked by comparison when I moved to Paris and saw the huge numbers of people jumping the turnstiles. This is despite the fact that the Paris metro costs substantially less than public transportation in Germany and England. Thankfully, in LA, fare evasion has not been formalized like it has in Paris... |
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Post by bzcat on Mar 5, 2012 12:58:04 GMT -8
My experience with various transit systems around the world is that fare evasion is a cultural condition, and does not have any direct relationship with whether one uses fare validation (proof of payment inspection) or free transfer secure zone (locking gates).
Los Angeles by virtue of not having secure zones for free transfers is uniquely unsuited for locking gates and turnstile. Plus the transit culture in LA has long been based on validation/proof of payment method with monthly paper passes.
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Post by thedessie on Mar 13, 2012 9:33:03 GMT -8
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 13, 2012 14:18:41 GMT -8
For the time being, I suspect the answer for Metrolink passengers will be: buy a TAP card.
That's because no matter what happens with negotiations between Metro and Metrolink — Metrolink agrees to upgrade their TVMs to TAP; Metro offers assistance to Metrolink; or Metrolink becomes the transit "Party of No" — it will take longer for Metrolink to adapt than it will take for Metro to lock the gates.
Locking the gates forces Metrolink to make a decision one way or another.
Oh, and Bzcat, culture can change (that's the whole point of advocating rail transit in the self-proclaimed "car capital of the world").
Put another way: Obama won Virginia (where multiracial marriage was illegal until a Supreme Court decision) and North Carolina in 2008. The Amazing Race's "Team Kentucky" is a white guy and a black guy, apparently best friends.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 13, 2012 17:06:20 GMT -8
For the time being, I suspect the answer for Metrolink passengers will be: buy a TAP card. Except that "locking" isn't really locking unless they remove the TAP lanes without turnstiles that allow wheelchairs and strollers to enter. Unless those are removed, Metro can't really "lock" anything without having Metro personnel at each entrance to watch that lane. |
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 14, 2012 0:06:47 GMT -8
I wasn't present when they did the gate locking tests on the Red Line, but everything that I have read indicates that the ADA-compliant gates are capable of being locked.
Either the doors haven't been installed yet, or the unlocked doors are held in the open position. Typically with fare gates, the default position is open, so that if the power fails, or in some other emergency, the gate will open.
I do think that Metro should hire station attendants, but don't expect to see them blocking the ADA gates.
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Post by bzcat on Mar 14, 2012 14:10:32 GMT -8
Oh, and Bzcat, culture can change (that's the whole point of advocating rail transit in the self-proclaimed "car capital of the world"). Put another way: Obama won Virginia (where multiracial marriage was illegal until a Supreme Court decision) and North Carolina in 2008. The Amazing Race's "Team Kentucky" is a white guy and a black guy, apparently best friends. You are using mixed metaphors  The catalyst for "change" in transit culture in LA would be if Metro implements distance based fare and allow free transfers between rail lines i.e. the equivalent of the Supreme court decision on miscegenation - a landmark change in law (fare rules) that brings about fundamental change in how people pay to use the rail system. I'm not against gates but the purpose of gates is not to stop fare evasion. It is to establish a sterile zone for transfers. We are getting gates but no sterile zones so I ask gate supporters one more time... what is the benefit? |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 14, 2012 17:19:08 GMT -8
I wasn't present when they did the gate locking tests on the Red Line, but everything that I have read indicates that the ADA-compliant gates are capable of being locked. Either the doors haven't been installed yet, or the unlocked doors are held in the open position. Typically with fare gates, the default position is open, so that if the power fails, or in some other emergency, the gate will open. I do think that Metro should hire station attendants, but don't expect to see them blocking the ADA gates. You're probably correct. This is what the Metro ADA gates look like on the left below. Perhaps something on there folds or pops out when the gate is locked.  |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 17, 2012 11:14:06 GMT -8
James is correct. I'll post a picture later.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 17, 2012 12:19:27 GMT -8
Here's what the ADA entrances look like. It appears that there is a barrier that can fold out when they are locked.  Probably looks something like this as our turnstiles are very similar to the PATH turnstiles.  |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 19, 2012 19:23:33 GMT -8
I know people here disagree, especially the Transit Coalition, but we really do need to either lock the gates or have some better fare verifcation. The current system just does not work. I know there is some estimate that we are only losing a few million a year, but I think that is low. I would have disagreed with you until recently, but now that Metro's studies have come out, I've done a 180. Well maybe not a 180, but at least a 150.  I still think that Metro is somewhat overstating things as most pass holders (except maybe day pass holders) that didn't TAP when the gates were unlocked still had a pass. They just didn't TAP and that doesn't change revenue. But what is very startling is the number of TAP card users that bought one-way rides when the turnstiles were locked. Sometimes as many as 35% of total station entries were one-way TAP card holders. I think that it's reasonable to assume that a significant number of this group had every intention of riding for free. |
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Post by James Fujita on Mar 21, 2012 2:33:48 GMT -8
They say a picture says a thousand words, and BlueLineShawn captures quite well "how an ADA gate works" with the pictures of Los Angeles Metro and NYC's PATH gates. There are only so many ways you can design a gate to be wide enough to be wheelchair-friendly and BART has these fold-in gates as well. |
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