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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 18, 2011 14:11:51 GMT -8
Well...the 60 day deadline for the NSFR-Expo Construction Authority judgement is today technically (60 days from 12/20/10)...and still no final resolution. Should we expect something on Tuesday? (Monday is a bank holiday).
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Post by spokker on Feb 18, 2011 16:12:55 GMT -8
Average speed for the line will be about 20 MPH from downtown to Santa Monica when all is said and done (according to published route length and buildexpo.org). I don't know if that information is accurate enough to include the Farmdale delay.
This was billed as a speedy line between Santa Monica and Downtown LA. An average speed of 20 MPH is quaint and neat, but I expect people to remain on the 10. It takes an hour on the freeway and Surface streets to travel between Downtown and Santa Monica according to Google maps (they tend to overestimate). Once you factor in an average 6 minute wait (12 minute headways) for an Expo train (46 + 6 = 52) the majority of drivers will not be enticed.
Expo is turning out to be a giant disappointment and it's not surprising that the railfans aren't talking about. If they could have gotten the average speed up to 30, or maybe even 40 (big visionaries!) this would have wiped the smirk off of every driver's face.
Ridership is going to be high because of the transit dependency of the population it serves. Santa Monica eco-nuts will probably ride it until they get tired of the stops and go running back to their Priuses.
"Signal controlled intersections." It makes me sick to my stomach.
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Post by spokker on Feb 18, 2011 16:13:36 GMT -8
You need to also take into account ridership per mile.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 18, 2011 16:39:05 GMT -8
Well...the 60 day deadline for the NSFR-Expo Construction Authority judgement is today technically (60 days from 12/20/10)...and still no final resolution. Should we expect something on Tuesday? (Monday is a bank holiday). The deadline is 90 days and it roughly corresponds to the March 18, 2011, board meeting of the Expo Construction Authority, at which the construction contract will be officially awarded. What this means is that March 18 is the day we could put all NIMBY woes and Expo uncertainties behind and let Phase 2 be constructed silently and in peace in the background.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 18, 2011 17:05:02 GMT -8
What this means is that March 18 is the day we could put all NIMBY woes and Expo uncertainties behind and let Phase 2 be constructed silently and in peace in the background. It ain't final until the judge says it is. Also, an appeal process is likely (though I know Expo will proceed without halting construction)
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Post by jamesinclair on Feb 18, 2011 21:33:46 GMT -8
Both Boston and SF have light rail extensions in the works, so there is competition. This was billed as a speedy line between Santa Monica and Downtown LA. An average speed of 20 MPH is quaint and neat, but I expect people to remain on the 10. It takes an hour on the freeway and Surface streets to travel between Downtown and Santa Monica according to Google maps (they tend to overestimate). Once you factor in an average 6 minute wait (12 minute headways) for an Expo train (46 + 6 = 52) the majority of drivers will not be enticed. 60 minutes in car = complete waste of time. 50 minutes on train = time to read newspaper, send emails, read books etc. Anybody who values their time would take the train. I mean, if you think your time is best sent working out your right foot on the brake....then so be it.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 18, 2011 22:41:56 GMT -8
30 minutes to Culver City and 47 minutes to Santa Monica are upper limits, not actual run times. The actual times are more likely to be less than 25 and 40 minutes, respectively.
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Post by RMoses on Feb 20, 2011 21:25:24 GMT -8
30 minutes to Culver City and 47 minutes to Santa Monica are upper limits, not actual run times. The actual times are more likely to be less than 25 and 40 minutes, respectively. Here's to 40 min not just being wishful thinking - anything more than 40 from SM will not entice anyone out of their vehicle when you factor in walking+wait times.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 20, 2011 22:29:49 GMT -8
Here's to 40 min not just being wishful thinking - anything more than 40 from SM will not entice anyone out of their vehicle when you factor in walking+wait times. 80,000 people travel between downtown LB and downtown LA on the Blue Line and that takes 55 minutes. People will travel Expo Line, bcause those passengers can read, play Angry Birds, twitter on the iPhone, read a book, or go to sleep. Can you do that in your 45 minute car journey? Maybe you'll get a ticket or cause an accident when continuously checking out the phone due to boredom.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Feb 21, 2011 6:43:10 GMT -8
Here's to 40 min not just being wishful thinking - anything more than 40 from SM will not entice anyone out of their vehicle when you factor in walking+wait times. Fair, but when going to downtown LA you must find a parking space, which is expensive, takes as much time as walking to/from a station and ties you to being "around" your car as you always have that niggling feeling you must walk back to it AND pay more for each 20 minute period - which gets expensive! One delightful thing about integrated public transportation is all one need find is a Metro sign, and you're back in the system. Walk downtown, City Hall, Olvera Street, Phillipe's, China Town, Little Tokyo, Art Walk, Broadway, Clifton's, Santee Alley, et cetera, et certa - and never feel that "I must stay near my car." My "car" is a metro train - always close. Oh, if I feel like it, I can also stop at 7 Grand to try one of their amazing Whiskey drinks and not worry about it! You're not driving! It's almost like having a chauffeur waiting for you, no matter where you go! It's delightfully freeing and beckons one to explore the city, walk around and find something new. It also lends to a sense of community as we can see each other and interact. It makes me feel much more connected - something I miss in Los Angeles. So, from a pragmatic point, yes: a car will (during non-rush hour times) get you from Santa Monica to Downtown faster. But the experience of being in downtown is so much more pleasant when you are not tied to an automobile. And consider: if you get home five minutes faster, what will you do with that time? I dare say you will waste it, plopped on your couch, watching commercials for prescription medication to make you happier. I would rather, in almost all cases, take the train. It makes me happier.
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Post by trackman on Feb 21, 2011 8:42:55 GMT -8
I take the train to and from work. It is very convienent. With the advent of wireless technology, now, I am much more productive! Now, I can get my fill of news on the train via my Blackberry or other device. And, I don't need to allocate that time to doing that at home.
Now, I feel time driving is a waste of time... Traveling my car is very inefficient use of my time.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 21, 2011 9:31:48 GMT -8
I take the train to and from work. It is very convienent. With the advent of wireless technology, now, I am much more productive! Now, I can get my fill of news on the train via my Blackberry or other device. And, I don't need to allocate that time to doing that at home. Now, I feel time driving is a waste of time... Traveling my car is very inefficient use of my time. Totally agreed with trackman and others. I commute from DTLA to Santa Monica (Yahoo! Center for work). A car would probably take me 15 minutes faster, however, I choose to ride the Big Blue Bus (plus I got the employer to switch out my entitled 'free' parking for a monthly EZ Transit Pass with a P1 sticker, so I can take ANY transit for free). I read all my news updates on Twitter, get my friends news on Facebook, enjoy small chats with other passengers, and sleeping. Now, I do have to drive once a week to Anaheim to see my parents and even if I'm going 10 mph, 40 mph, etc... I get bored. I constantly feel I should be checking my phone (which is very unsafe). I have more fun taking Metro than wasting that time with my hands behind the wheel. Let somebody else drive. Plus, I wouldn't be on Level 5 of Angry Birds if I wasn't taking the bus!
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Post by tobias087 on Feb 21, 2011 12:18:36 GMT -8
And all of this is also why transit agencies should always be on the lookout for ways to make the ride more enjoyable. The big two that I'm see as lacking would be free (or cheap) wi-fi, and cell phone service for the subway tunnels. Wi-fi would let people get more work done from their computers, or just browse facebook, for those of us who don't have a smart phone, or even post to this board! As for cell service, making calls is just another thing that you can't do while driving, but in this case, you can only do it on transit if you're in certain locations! Dropping calls going into tunnels isn't fun, and the Union Station to North Hollywood ride is 30 minutes that you could be making phone calls with if there were service!
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 21, 2011 14:01:40 GMT -8
And all of this is also why transit agencies should always be on the lookout for ways to make the ride more enjoyable. The big two that I'm see as lacking would be free (or cheap) wi-fi, and cell phone service for the subway tunnels. Wi-fi would let people get more work done from their computers, or just browse facebook, for those of us who don't have a smart phone, or even post to this board! As for cell service, making calls is just another thing that you can't do while driving, but in this case, you can only do it on transit if you're in certain locations! Dropping calls going into tunnels isn't fun, and the Union Station to North Hollywood ride is 30 minutes that you could be making phone calls with if there were service! I would fight AGAINST cell phone service. WiFi is good, as long as phone call service is not possible. Sitting next to people on the bus, or even a few rows away from them, and having to listen to THEIR conversation for half an hour sucks. It's actually way more annoying than Transit TV. People just give that one or two people "the stare". It's quite annoying. Hence the reason that planes have been reluctant to add that service because of passenger convenience. The service is available (it won't mess with airplane signals), but it's quite a nuisance. Internet service is okay...phone call...no way.
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Post by tobias087 on Feb 21, 2011 14:10:42 GMT -8
Ok, that's a fair objection. But what about text messaging? Something you also can't do while driving, which a lot of people are functionally addicted to, especially young people. Being able to text would definitely entice more riders.
And also, I think there's some social pressure against having annoying phone conversations while on transit. I feel as though I mostly don't see long conversations on busses or the light-rail system. Mostly just short status-report type conversations, which aren't very bothering, to me at least. But cell service on the subway would allow for texting.
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Post by matthewb on Feb 21, 2011 14:34:08 GMT -8
Wifi service would allow texting via skype, or other apps supported on iPhone and Android. The connection speed would probably not be fast enough to support voice calls. Problem solved. I know it's not fair to people like myself who have stupid old phones, but honestly, I can write my text and wait to come out of the tunnel for it to send. (Actually, not really true because I have a stupid phone and an ipod touch, so glue them together and I have the poor man's iphone.)
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Post by jdrcrasher on Feb 21, 2011 16:06:19 GMT -8
I wouldn't be surprised if the Regional Connector and Expo Line projects ALONE make our system #1 in the United States, and North America soon after. In fact, i'd go so far as to say that in a couple decades, we might have the most used light-rail system in the world. I mean by then, Measure R will have long been finished, and LRT projects like the 405 Corridor Westside-Long Beach extension, Green Line Santa Monica extension, Yellow Line, Silver Line, Santa Ana Corridor, Rosemead/Lakewood Corridor, GLEE Phase III, GLFE Phase III(ONT), Crenshaw Hollywood/South Bay extensions, etc., will either be studied, under construction, or maybe completed.
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Post by trackman on Feb 21, 2011 16:09:12 GMT -8
I am aboard the trains a lot, and, although it is not unusual, it is not common enough to seem a problem at all..... People speaking on a phone.
In fact, there is only 1 person speaking on a cell for every 20 doing wifi Internet cruising or texting. And, I am probably under estimating that count.
And, only 1 in every 10 cell phone users speaking is being rude - extended conversations, loud, or dirty words. I see this behavior only about once every 2 months.
Those odds don't seem too bad at all if wifi or cell service were allowed in tunnels and subways. In fact, just make it so that the cell service was not complete and phone conversations couldn't last for more than a minute. Internet service would automatically pickup, but cell calls would need to be re-initiated.
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Post by carter on Feb 21, 2011 21:00:12 GMT -8
I wouldn't be surprised if the Regional Connector and Expo Line projects ALONE make our system #1 in the United States, and North America soon after. In fact, i'd go so far as to say that in a couple decades, we might have the most used light-rail system in the world. I mean by then, Measure R will have long been finished, and LRT projects like the 405 Corridor Westside-Long Beach extension, Green Line Santa Monica extension, Yellow Line, Silver Line, Santa Ana Corridor, Rosemead/Lakewood Corridor, GLEE Phase III, GLFE Phase III(ONT), Crenshaw Hollywood/South Bay extensions, etc., will either be studied, under construction, or maybe completed. FWIW, I don't consider "Most Used" to be a very useful measurement of a the quality or success of a light rail system, mainly because I'd rather have 100% of travelers taking a bus or heavy rail than have the highest total light rail riders, but have that represent only 5% of the population. Maybe this is an obvious point, but it seems worth making before we starting getting into city pride competitions.
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Post by tobias087 on Feb 22, 2011 11:55:15 GMT -8
I rode past a few Expo Line stations last night, and although it was very dark, I think I spotted new benches at several stations and new sign holders. Does anybody have any photos?
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 23, 2011 12:37:26 GMT -8
Community meeting tomorrow: Expo Light Rail Line Thursday, February 24, 2011 6:30 p.m. - 8:00 p.m. Culver City Senior Center 4095 Overland AvenueCulver City, CA 90232 (On-site parking is available) At this public meeting, we will discuss the following: - Traffic advisories in your neighborhood
- Nighttime construction schedule
- West End construction activities
- And the opportunity to have your questions answered by construction personnel
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Post by RMoses on Feb 24, 2011 22:14:10 GMT -8
Does anyone have BBB and MTA weekday boarding numbers (10 and 704), how do the 2 origins compare?
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Post by darrell on Feb 24, 2011 22:55:31 GMT -8
From conversation at the Culver City meeting tonight:
* Possible November opening to La Cienega (depending on testing and board approval).
* Possible April opening to Venice/Robertson.
* First test train perhaps late March (after a dummy to test clearances goes first), with advance notice for all of us who want to witness the milestone.
And great to meet roadtrainer in person - thanks for introducing yourself!
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 25, 2011 0:44:46 GMT -8
From conversation at the Culver City meeting tonight: * Possible November opening to La Cienega (depending on testing and board approval). * Possible April opening to Venice/Robertson. * First test train perhaps late March (after a dummy to test clearances goes first), with advance notice for all of us who want to witness the milestone. Eight months of train testing? Why? This is twice the normal and very unusual. If they are going to wait until November, why don't they speed up the Venice/Robertson a little bit so that the whole thing could open as a whole in February 2012 and we don't start with a bad impression with poor ridership and an obscure terminus.
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Post by James Fujita on Feb 25, 2011 2:41:47 GMT -8
They should open what they can when they can.
For a lot of people, USC/ Exposition Park would be a pretty big deal. It's not always about the terminus.
(I feel the same way about the Eastside Gold Line, or even the Red Line)
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 25, 2011 7:48:36 GMT -8
They should open what they can when they can. For a lot of people, USC/ Exposition Park would be a pretty big deal. It's not always about the terminus. (I feel the same way about the Eastside Gold Line, or even the Red Line) Unlike the terminus of the Red, Gold and Green Lines, Venice/Robertson will be a huge destination station being only .8 miles from downtown and the key transit corridor to West LA and Santa Monica. I wouldn't put this station in comparison to Atlantic, Sierra Madre, Norwalk, Redondo Beach or North Hollywood.
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Post by masonite on Feb 25, 2011 9:03:03 GMT -8
They should open what they can when they can. For a lot of people, USC/ Exposition Park would be a pretty big deal. It's not always about the terminus. (I feel the same way about the Eastside Gold Line, or even the Red Line) Unlike the terminus of the Red, Gold and Green Lines, Venice/Robertson will be a huge destination station being only .8 miles from downtown and the key transit corridor to West LA and Santa Monica. I wouldn't put this station in comparison to Atlantic, Sierra Madre, Norwalk, Redondo Beach or North Hollywood. They should open whatever they can as soon as they can regardless of terminus. This project is already an embarrasment from an execution standpoint as it is going to be well over 1 year late. Making it closer to 2 years late is just going to give more firepower to rail critics who argue that we can't even build a basic light rail line on time. Besides, won't it be nice to actually have this thing up and running for the UCLA-USC game? That would be great exposure for the line.
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Post by Gokhan on Feb 25, 2011 12:58:12 GMT -8
Enjoy the presentation from last night's meeting. Culver Junction Station will be completed in January 2012.
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Post by bzcat on Feb 25, 2011 13:16:13 GMT -8
I agree with the option to open as far as they can as soon as possible. Delaying it to wait for Robertson only make sense if you have a "westside" mindset. Expo will probably see significant ridership from Day 1 between Metro Center and USC. It would be great to see the train running for football games.
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Post by bzcat on Feb 25, 2011 13:18:27 GMT -8
Does anyone have BBB and MTA weekday boarding numbers (10 and 704), how do the 2 origins compare? This may be the wrong place to ask such a specific question. But I can tell you from personal experience that 704 boarding at Santa Monica is basically a rounding error. Metro doesn't run enough buses from Santa Monica on 704 to make it a reliable option so no one takes it. And that further justifies Metro's decision to shrink 704.
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