|
Post by metrocenter on Nov 15, 2016 14:59:50 GMT -8
During the evening rush, Expo Line trains are serving 7th/Metro far more frequently than Blue Line trains.
Many evenings, I will wait for three Expo Line trains to come by before a Blue Line train comes. I've seen a lot of pissed-off Blue Line riders on days when this happens. And Expo Line trains are not only more frequent, but often have plenty of free seats, and are newer, fancier trains.
When a Blue Line train finally comes, it's usually an old Nippon-Sharyo train from 1989. Because of the low frequency of the service, the trains fill up to standing only very fast.
I know the Expo Line is the new "choice" line. But it would be nice for Metro to throw us Blue Line folks a bone. Considering how many more of us there are.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Nov 15, 2016 15:09:00 GMT -8
Interesting growing pains. I wonder if the communities along the route of the Blue Line went through this? Or is this more a case of Westside privilege vs. Gateway Cities low-rent woes and disenfranchisement? I suspect it may just be a side-effect of setting frequency goals for the Expo Line. When people see Expo riders getting more frequent, more pleasant service on nicer trains, day after day, the optics suggest disenfranchisement.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on Nov 15, 2016 17:02:05 GMT -8
During the evening rush, Expo Line trains are serving 7th/Metro far more frequently than Blue Line trains. Many evenings, I will wait for three Expo Line trains to come by before a Blue Line train comes. I've seen a lot of pissed-off Blue Line riders on days when this happens. And Expo Line trains are not only more frequent, but often have plenty of free seats, and are newer, fancier trains. When a Blue Line train finally comes, it's usually an old Nippon-Sharyo train from 1989. Because of the low frequency of the service, the trains fill up to standing only very fast. I know the Expo Line is the new "choice" line. But it would be nice for Metro to throw us Blue Line folks a bone. Considering how many more of us there are. That shouldn't be happening as they are both on 6 minute headways. Blue Line would have to be way off the schedule, but Metro may be in over their heads on the operations front. As far as the trains, yes that is the way it works. Blue Line also had service for 25 years prior and just got an upgrade to their stations. Expo is still running the old Nippon-Sharyo trains still as well. The main problem is that it isn't efficient to interline two light rail lines in the narrow section north of Washington. Maybe it will be better with the Connector, but we'll have to wait until at least 2021 (and maybe longer if current construction delays continue to play out) to find out. Similar thing happened when the Hollywood Red Line opened up to me when I used the subway from Wilshire/Western. That was 17 years ago and service hasn't been equaled on this stub portion yet from the 90s. The Blue Line hopefully just has a temporary issue.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Nov 15, 2016 23:18:58 GMT -8
During the evening rush, Expo Line trains are serving 7th/Metro far more frequently than Blue Line trains. Many evenings, I will wait for three Expo Line trains to come by before a Blue Line train comes. I've seen a lot of pissed-off Blue Line riders on days when this happens. And Expo Line trains are not only more frequent, but often have plenty of free seats, and are newer, fancier trains. When a Blue Line train finally comes, it's usually an old Nippon-Sharyo train from 1989. Because of the low frequency of the service, the trains fill up to standing only very fast. I know the Expo Line is the new "choice" line. But it would be nice for Metro to throw us Blue Line folks a bone. Considering how many more of us there are. What you're describing is an optical illusion, or more accurately a perceptual illusion. The peak period service frequency on both routes is the same: ten trains per hour. Since you're a Blue Line rider, you will see more Expo Line trains since you always board the first Blue Line train that you see. I'm an Expo Line rider and I see more Blue Line trains. If you waited at the station for longer, eventually you would see the same number of trains for each Line. Trains on both routes tend to bunch. Instead of arriving every six minutes, according to the schedules, you may have a three minute gap followed by a nine minute gap. The "bone" that Metro throws the Blue Line is three-car trains, which have 50% more capacity than the two-car trains serving the Expo Line.
|
|
|
Post by davebowman on Nov 16, 2016 9:45:54 GMT -8
If it makes you feel any better, the EB Expo Line train that was supposed to arrive at Bergamot Station this morning was five minutes late, and when it did arrive it was already very full, the most crowded I've ever seen an EB train at Bergamot on a weekday morning. That's two out of three days this week the new EB 8:05am train was late/never showed up. I didn't see the 7:59am train go by either on my way to the station, so I think there was basically one EB two-car train for about a fifteen-minute span. And while I was waiting a couple WB trains stopped at Bergamot. Is there some problem with the turn around at downtown Santa Monica station? The trip to Expo Park/USC took 35 minutes, and after I got off and was waiting to cross Exposition another packed EB train arrived literally one-minute later.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Nov 16, 2016 11:00:04 GMT -8
If it makes you feel any better, the EB Expo Line train that was supposed to arrive at Bergamot Station this morning was five minutes late, and when it did arrive it was already very full, the most crowded I've ever seen an EB train at Bergamot on a weekday morning. That's two out of three days this week the new EB 8:05am train was late/never showed up. I didn't see the 7:59am train go by either on my way to the station, so I think there was basically one EB two-car train for about a fifteen-minute span. And while I was waiting a couple WB trains stopped at Bergamot. Is there some problem with the turn around at downtown Santa Monica station? The trip to Expo Park/USC took 35 minutes, and after I got off and was waiting to cross Exposition another packed EB train arrived literally one-minute later. The problem is more likely caused by issues at the other end of the line, in downtown LA. There's not enough room there for one train to turn around every three minutes (i.e. one Expo and one Blue Line each every six minutes) especially when trains into downtown don't arrive in the proper order: Blue,Expo,Blue,Expo, etc. Instead, trains on both lines get bunched due to a variety of issues (signal delay, mechanical problems). Then you have trains arriving in the wrong order at 7th/Metro: Blue,Blue,Expo,Blue,Blue. The dispatchers then have to release the trains from 7th/Metro already bunched up. The bunching problem is then magnified because everybody gets on the first train, so that first train is overloaded and encounters dwell time delays at the stations. And the train operators don't help the situation because they're trying to maintain the schedule for their train, without regard for the overall operations of the system. When delays and bunching occur, the primary focus shouldn't be schedule adherence, it should be maintaining train spacing. Think about it: does it make any difference to you whether you board the 8:05 train at 8:05 AM, or whether you're actually boarding the 7:59 train running 6 minutes late? These problems could be mitigated if dispatchers at 7th/Metro had the flexibility to swap trains between the two lines. If trains arrive Blue,Blue,Expo,Blue,Blue they could be released Blue,Expo,Blue,Expo,Blue. But they can't do this because Blue Line trains currently operate with three-car consists and Expo Line trains operate with two-car consists. If you swapped a two-car train onto the Blue Line you would really be screwing them.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Nov 16, 2016 11:12:37 GMT -8
My suggested solution: run three-car trains only on Expo and Blue Lines, and change the headways so Expo runs every 10 minutes and the Blue Line runs every 5 minutes. That will allow Metro dispatchers to swap trains between the Expo and Blue Lines to maintain proper spacing. It will also provide enough capacity on both lines to serve the current ridership demand. As it stands, Expo is serving 42,000 riders on the average weekday. The current operating plan is sufficient to serve ~60,000 daily passengers, assuming efficient operations. Of course, we all know that existing operations are far from efficient. Reducing the number of trains turning around at 7th/Metro (from 20 to 18 per hour) and allowing Metro dispatchers to swap trains between the Expo and Blue Lines would create a much more enjoyable riding environment for the passengers on both lines. One caveat: This revised operating plan would require ~11 more vehicles than are currently serving the Expo and Blue Lines, so it would be a couple months before it could be implemented, based on current rail car delivery rates.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on Nov 16, 2016 11:48:55 GMT -8
If it makes you feel any better, the EB Expo Line train that was supposed to arrive at Bergamot Station this morning was five minutes late, and when it did arrive it was already very full, the most crowded I've ever seen an EB train at Bergamot on a weekday morning. That's two out of three days this week the new EB 8:05am train was late/never showed up. I didn't see the 7:59am train go by either on my way to the station, so I think there was basically one EB two-car train for about a fifteen-minute span. And while I was waiting a couple WB trains stopped at Bergamot. Is there some problem with the turn around at downtown Santa Monica station? The trip to Expo Park/USC took 35 minutes, and after I got off and was waiting to cross Exposition another packed EB train arrived literally one-minute later. The problem is more likely caused by issues at the other end of the line, in downtown LA. There's not enough room there for one train to turn around every three minutes (i.e. one Expo and one Blue Line each every six minutes) especially when trains into downtown don't arrive in the proper order: Blue,Expo,Blue,Expo, etc. Instead, trains on both lines get bunched due to a variety of issues (signal delay, mechanical problems). Then you have trains arriving in the wrong order at 7th/Metro: Blue,Blue,Expo,Blue,Blue. The dispatchers then have to release the trains from 7th/Metro already bunched up. The bunching problem is then magnified because everybody gets on the first train, so that first train is overloaded and encounters dwell time delays at the stations. And the train operators don't help the situation because they're trying to maintain the schedule for their train, without regard for the overall operations of the system. When delays and bunching occur, the primary focus shouldn't be schedule adherence, it should be maintaining train spacing. Think about it: does it make any difference to you whether you board the 8:05 train at 8:05 AM, or whether you're actually boarding the 7:59 train running 6 minutes late? These problems could be mitigated if dispatchers at 7th/Metro had the flexibility to swap trains between the two lines. If trains arrive Blue,Blue,Expo,Blue,Blue they could be released Blue,Expo,Blue,Expo,Blue. But they can't do this because Blue Line trains currently operate with three-car consists and Expo Line trains operate with two-car consists. If you swapped a two-car train onto the Blue Line you would really be screwing them. There was a disabled train in DTLA on the Expo Line this morning. There were 15 minute delays all around.
|
|
|
Post by RMoses on Nov 16, 2016 19:17:55 GMT -8
They need to add a 3rd track between Washington and Metro Center to segregate Expo from Blue so one does not cause a delay for the other. Sharing tracks with this planned frequency is not sustainable.
Further, sections should be buried (cut and cover) to eliminate all major intersections from Washington, starting with the I-10 on ramp.
|
|
|
Post by erict on Nov 16, 2016 19:38:02 GMT -8
The famed DTC2, Downtown Connector 2, discussed many times here with many ideas presented. I like your idea of a third track hopefully underground, and the idea to just run the Blue line up Alameda to Union Station. The Alameda option would orphan the San Pedro station though, I guess. Maybe DTC2 needs its own thread? They need to add a 3rd track between Washington and Metro Center to segregate Expo from Blue so one does not cause a delay for the other. Sharing tracks with this planned frequency is not sustainable. Further, sections should be buried (cut and cover) to eliminate all major intersections from Washington, starting with the I-10 on ramp.
|
|
|
Post by davebowman on Nov 17, 2016 11:48:45 GMT -8
Is it still possible to do that, logistically? That would be great. I rarely take an EB Expo Line train past Expo Park/USC, but I did this past weekend and the stretch along Flower was painfully slow. I don't know if I could do that every day.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Nov 17, 2016 12:26:55 GMT -8
Is it still possible to do that, logistically? That would be great. I rarely take an EB Expo Line train past Expo Park/USC, but I did this past weekend and the stretch along Flower was painfully slow. I don't know if I could do that every day. I ride that section every day and it is indeed quite painful. The inbound travel is significantly slower than the outbound direction, which is evidence that the delays are caused more by the congestion in the 7th/Metro terminal station, than by traffic congestion at signals along the alignment.
|
|
|
Post by tramfan on Nov 17, 2016 15:15:16 GMT -8
So that means that the DTC will solve all the current bunching up and delays?
|
|
|
Post by darrell on Nov 17, 2016 20:36:41 GMT -8
So that means that the DTC will solve all the current bunching up and delays? The DTC connector should help a lot because trains will no longer turn back at 7th. Worst case will be one waiting for another at the Washington junction.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Nov 17, 2016 21:58:31 GMT -8
So that means that the DTC will solve all the current bunching up and delays? Yes, the DTC should help a lot. But in the meantime, they need to improve operations for the next 4-5 years. I wonder if it's possible for Metro to use the tunnel that is being extended north from 7th/Metro as excess storage to help with this problem. I.e., if trains arrive in bunches, they can be stacked in the tunnel and released according to the schedule to maintain spacing.
|
|
|
Post by transituser23 on Nov 21, 2016 16:01:55 GMT -8
Is there a way to get alerts when there are problems with the Expo line (service delays, etc.)? I use the Nextbus app on my phone and today it indicated big gaps between trains around noon, 20 minutes or so instead of the usual 6 minutes...so I thought something was up and I didn't want to be stranded at a station. I wound up driving and taking the bus. I noticed trains were running (around 3pm) but the app said "no data"....
|
|
f ron
Full Member
Posts: 222
|
Post by f ron on Nov 21, 2016 16:14:16 GMT -8
Is there a way to get alerts when there are problems with the Expo line (service delays, etc.)? I use the Nextbus app on my phone and today it indicated big gaps between trains around noon, 20 minutes or so instead of the usual 6 minutes...so I thought something was up and I didn't want to be stranded at a station. I wound up driving and taking the bus. I noticed trains were running (around 3pm) but the app said "no data".... Metro issues service alerts on Twitter. linkThey seem pretty informative and timely, though some user complaints indicate that it's not as comprehensive as it could be. Metro had scheduled and then cancelled some much needed maintenance to Expo for the first three days of this week. Had it occurred it would have affected headway frequency. It's possible that Nextbus didn't get the cancellation notice and was relying on no longer relevant data. According to the Twitter feed, at least, the trains were on time today.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Nov 22, 2016 13:28:53 GMT -8
Is there a way to get alerts when there are problems with the Expo line (service delays, etc.)? I use the Nextbus app on my phone and today it indicated big gaps between trains around noon, 20 minutes or so instead of the usual 6 minutes...so I thought something was up and I didn't want to be stranded at a station. I wound up driving and taking the bus. I noticed trains were running (around 3pm) but the app said "no data".... Metro issues service alerts on Twitter. linkThey seem pretty informative and timely, though some user complaints indicate that it's not as comprehensive as it could be. Metro had scheduled and then cancelled some much needed maintenance to Expo for the first three days of this week. Had it occurred it would have affected headway frequency. It's possible that Nextbus didn't get the cancellation notice and was relying on no longer relevant data. According to the Twitter feed, at least, the trains were on time today. I noticed the same thing yesterday. I arrived at the station at 9:15, hoping to catch Expo before they switched to 15-minute headways (I didn't know then that the maintenance had been cancelled. My Transit App showed the the next train wouldn't arrive for 15 minutes, after a 20 minute gap from the previous train, so I was expecting to have to stand on a full train. To my surprise, a train arrived within 2 minute and it was only half full. I agree with f ron that the App was only picking up signals from the trains that were supposed to be running on the reduced schedule, and ignoring the "extra" trains.
|
|
|
Post by thanks4goingmetro on Nov 22, 2016 13:53:36 GMT -8
Is there a way to get alerts when there are problems with the Expo line (service delays, etc.)? I use the Nextbus app on my phone and today it indicated big gaps between trains around noon, 20 minutes or so instead of the usual 6 minutes...so I thought something was up and I didn't want to be stranded at a station. I wound up driving and taking the bus. I noticed trains were running (around 3pm) but the app said "no data".... Metro issues service alerts on Twitter. linkThey seem pretty informative and timely, though some user complaints indicate that it's not as comprehensive as it could be. Metro had scheduled and then cancelled some much needed maintenance to Expo for the first three days of this week. Had it occurred it would have affected headway frequency. It's possible that Nextbus didn't get the cancellation notice and was relying on no longer relevant data. According to the Twitter feed, at least, the trains were on time today. I'd recommend either Transit app (free, for iOS or Android) which has alerts and a feature called GO that says when to start walking to your stop/station. Also, Apple Maps has surpassed Google Maps Transit and most other transit apps by every metric with realtime arrival and delay data as well as fully mature transit directions including station interior maps. You can even set a Metro route as a favorite and have Maps warn you of delays on your iOS 10 widget screen. See photo as of 1:45 this afternoon. Update: gold line delays just popped up on my favorite routes statuses.
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Nov 23, 2016 11:31:43 GMT -8
What you're describing is an optical illusion, or more accurately a perceptual illusion. The peak period service frequency on both routes is the same: ten trains per hour. Since you're a Blue Line rider, you will see more Expo Line trains since you always board the first Blue Line train that you see. I'm an Expo Line rider and I see more Blue Line trains. If you waited at the station for longer, eventually you would see the same number of trains for each Line. Trains on both routes tend to bunch. Instead of arriving every six minutes, according to the schedules, you may have a three minute gap followed by a nine minute gap. The "bone" that Metro throws the Blue Line is three-car trains, which have 50% more capacity than the two-car trains serving the Expo Line. Your theory would make sense if half the time I stepped right onto a Blue Line train, and the other half the time I had to wait for one Expo Line train to pass before my Blue Line train arrived. But this is not the case. More often than not, I wait ten, fifteen minutes or more at 7th/Metro, as I watch Expo after Expo arrive. Also, when I am riding into downtown, we sometimes wait at Grand station and are told we are waiting for congestion to clear downtown. Yet while waiting, I often will see two northbound Expo trains pass Washington/Flower. I have spoken to the Metro workers waiting at the south end of the platform about this. Their focus right now is meeting the Expo spacing requirements given to them by their superiors. Making everything the more frustrating is the "next train" monitors which are next to useless. It seems like the monitors are set to follow the scheduled arrivals, *until* Metro staff sees a train coming down the tracks. He/she then quickly changes the monitor to match the train. Next time I have an hour to stand around on the platform, I will count the number of trains of each type departing 7th/Metro.
|
|
|
Post by tramfan on Nov 30, 2016 14:22:44 GMT -8
Even though the 6 minute headway supposedly requires Metro to have only 2 car trains on the Expo line, I often see 3 car trains passing by in the morning. Does it mean they now have enough supply of new cars to start expanding to 3 car trains or is it just a fluke? A blue line train turned into an Expo line train because of scheduling problems at 7th?
|
|
|
Post by bzcat on Nov 30, 2016 15:06:22 GMT -8
Even though the 6 minute headway supposedly requires Metro to have only 2 car trains on the Expo line, I often see 3 car trains passing by in the morning. Does it mean they now have enough supply of new cars to start expanding to 3 car trains or is it just a fluke? A blue line train turned into an Expo line train because of scheduling problems at 7th? On weekdays, that is a blue line train being turned for Expo due to a variety of reasons. On weekends, that is probably by design. Expo runs 3 car trains when there is football game for example.
|
|
|
Post by calwatch on Dec 3, 2016 0:57:28 GMT -8
The six minute all day service which started in October has unceremoniously ended today. First, next week (Dec. 5-9) will be rail grinding on middays, dropping train service to every 15 minutes, and following that the new schedule effective Dec. 11 has 12 minute service during the midday period (9 am-3 pm).
|
|
|
Post by John Ryan on Dec 3, 2016 6:53:56 GMT -8
The six minute all day service which started in October has unceremoniously ended today. First, next week (Dec. 5-9) will be rail grinding on middays, dropping train service to every 15 minutes, and following that the new schedule effective Dec. 11 has 12 minute service during the midday period (9 am-3 pm). Is this permanent?
|
|
|
Post by calwatch on Dec 4, 2016 21:58:00 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by bzcat on Dec 5, 2016 17:15:13 GMT -8
Well, that's disappointing. Right after Measure M passes...
|
|
|
Post by thanks4goingmetro on Dec 5, 2016 17:23:25 GMT -8
^^^ But this is really more in convention with the other Metro Rail lines. Demand is lower during midday.
|
|
|
Post by joshuanickel on Dec 6, 2016 3:21:41 GMT -8
Metro says that the new service will match up better with the blue line to provide better connections: Metro Expo Line – During weekday morning and afternoon peak hours, half of the trains will be three car trains. Midday service will be operated every 12 minutes with three car trains instead of every six minutes to match the weekday midday service provided on the Metro Blue Line to provide better rail-to-rail connections. Metro bus and train service changes go into effect on Sunday, Dec. 11
|
|
expo
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by expo on Dec 6, 2016 12:57:37 GMT -8
One thing to note is that Metro did not increase the scheduled trip time on Expo as some of us had feared. I think that is a positive as it will keep up pressure to consistently keep end-to-end travel time at 47-48 minutes, whether or not peak hour trains are actually achieving that currently.
|
|
|
Post by exporider on Dec 6, 2016 14:03:23 GMT -8
The best part of this service change is adding alternating 3-car trains during the peak periods. Currently, if there are bunching problems on either the Expo or Blue Line, the inconsistent train lengths prevent Metro dispatchers from swapping trains between the two lines. As a result, a bunching problem on the Expo Line causes delays on the Blue Line, or vice versa. Now with the service change, since some of the Expo trains will be 3-car consists, the Metro dispatchers will have the opportunity to move trains between lines, thus mitigating much of the bunching problems. As for the reduction in midday service, from 6 minutes to 12 minutes, I think that is an appropriate level of service to serve the ridership demand, as long as they're using 3-car trains in the midday period.
|
|