|
Post by RMoses on Jan 4, 2013 17:54:30 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 5, 2013 9:55:59 GMT -8
I like the downtown Santa Monica name. Colorado/17th/SMC is too long, I think if a station needs more than 2 "/"'s it's overdoing it. I don't think Olympic is needed with 26th Street/Bergamont. Bergamont is/will become a greater destination for LA. Naming stations after destinations instead of cross streets, I still think, is the way to go. Unless if there is more than 1 destination at a station, then cross streets are fine (i.e. Koreatown). Having stations named after cross streets are primarily the benefit of car users. Whereas destinations is for the benefit of pedestrians and transit users who use the system.
|
|
|
Post by roadtrainer on Jan 5, 2013 10:33:57 GMT -8
It's time to do so! Yes it is time for the high and mighty to apologise and offer the olive Branch to Dwight. So what ugly words were said' it came from both sides. So let by-gones be by-gones and shine it on as the world says and start the New Year right. And I am practicing my own preaching and I forgive those who offended me. After all the scriptures preach that a man ought to forgive not 70 times but 7 times 70! So get over it and let us forgive and forget, and besides that why cheat yourselves out of life blessings.
|
|
Adrian Auer-Hudson
Junior Member
Supporter of "Expo Light Rail - Enabler for the Digital Coast".
Posts: 65
|
Post by Adrian Auer-Hudson on Jan 5, 2013 10:57:58 GMT -8
It's time to do so! Let us forgive and forget, and besides that why cheat yourselves out of life blessings. Amen.
|
|
|
Post by TransportationZ on Jan 5, 2013 22:25:33 GMT -8
While I agree that putting SMC on the Colorado/17th/SMC station is technically inaccurate, but it's exactly like how metro renamed Aviation station on the green line to "Aviation/LAX". Yes, technically its inaccurate, but it is the main connecting station for those going to LAX for those taking the metro. It lets unfamiliar patrons quickly see where the nearest station is closest to major destinations. With that said, this station is going to need a good shuttle. With a good shuttle like the mini-blue running every 5-10 minutes, this should put pressure off the BBB 7/Rapid 7, which is a complete mess in the afternoons.
More destination names are definitely needed in the system. It feels more like the system is hitting random intersections in the middle of nowhere than hitting actual destinations.
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Jan 5, 2013 23:59:59 GMT -8
Stations should have one name, and only one name. Anything that goes after / should be a subtitle.
Destinations are tricky....some destinations arent there forever. Downtown Santa Monica will be, so thats obviously fine. Something like "LA Live" would be a bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by joshuanickel on Jan 6, 2013 11:47:10 GMT -8
While I agree that putting SMC on the Colorado/17th/SMC station is technically inaccurate, but it's exactly like how metro renamed Aviation station on the green line to "Aviation/LAX". Yes, technically its inaccurate, but it is the main connecting station for those going to LAX for those taking the metro. It lets unfamiliar patrons quickly see where the nearest station is closest to major destinations. With that said, this station is going to need a good shuttle. With a good shuttle like the mini-blue running every 5-10 minutes, this should put pressure off the BBB 7/Rapid 7, which is a complete mess in the afternoons.More destination names are definitely needed in the system. It feels more like the system is hitting random intersections in the middle of nowhere than hitting actual destinations. In the short range transportation plan released by the big blue bus, on page 8 the big blue bus talks about a new shuttle route using 60 foot articulated buses to accommodate the number of students expected to take the train: The site of the future 15th-17th St. station in the middle of Santa Monica is currently served by the Crosstown Ride. The hours and routing of this service may be adjusted to meet changes in travel demand and patterns. In FY 2011-12, BBB worked with the Expo Authority and the rail construction contractor Skanka-Rados to reconfigure the station area and adjacent streets to provide for a pull-out “pocket” on southbound 17th St. that will enable a planned new shuttle route to safely board and disembark passengers. This shuttle would operate when Santa Monica College (SMC) is in session and would require operation of a 60-foot long articulated vehicle to accommodate passenger surges at class start and dismissal times. www.smgov.net/departments/council/agendas/2012/20121023/s201210233B.htmwww.smgov.net/departments/council/agendas/2012/20121023/s201210233B-3.pdf
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jan 7, 2013 10:39:41 GMT -8
I would call the stations: - Santa Monica Downtown
- Santa Monica 17th Street
- Santa Monica Bergamot
Clear, simple and unambiguous. "Santa Monica" to bind them all (the namespace, if you will). And then the last part, as the discriminator (to distinguish "which" Santa Monica station). I agree that SMC is misleading. Yes, this is your stop, if you're going to SMC. But including "SMC" in the name implies the station is located at SMC (which it ain't).
|
|
|
Post by masonite on Jan 7, 2013 11:00:33 GMT -8
I would call the stations: - Santa Monica Downtown
- Santa Monica 17th Street
- Santa Monica Bergamot
Clear, simple and unambiguous. "Santa Monica" to bind them all (the namespace, if you will). And then the last part, as the discriminator (to distinguish "which" Santa Monica station). I agree that SMC is misleading. Yes, this is your stop, if you're going to SMC. But including "SMC" in the name implies the station is located at SMC (which it ain't). Using Santa Monica as the lead is confusing. We don't name any of our other stations like this like on the Gold Line in Pasadena or the Blue in Long Beach. Besides, people will think they are next to Santa Monica Blvd. which they are not.
|
|
|
Post by bzcat on Jan 7, 2013 11:48:30 GMT -8
SMC main campus (17/Pico) is still within walking distance from 17th between Colorado and Olympic (slightly less than a mile) so I don't have a big problem with the name. However, it should really be:
"Colorado/17th St - SMC"
not
"Colorado/17th St/SMC"
They imply very different things. The first one says SMC is in the vicinity. The 2nd one says the station is AT SMC.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 7, 2013 12:29:08 GMT -8
I would call the stations: - Santa Monica Downtown
- Santa Monica 17th Street
- Santa Monica Bergamot
Clear, simple and unambiguous. "Santa Monica" to bind them all (the namespace, if you will). And then the last part, as the discriminator (to distinguish "which" Santa Monica station). I agree that SMC is misleading. Yes, this is your stop, if you're going to SMC. But including "SMC" in the name implies the station is located at SMC (which it ain't). Using Santa Monica as the lead is confusing. We don't name any of our other stations like this like on the Gold Line in Pasadena or the Blue in Long Beach. Besides, people will think they are next to Santa Monica Blvd. which they are not. Agreed. List the street destination first, then use Santa Monica if applicable. Honestly, the only one that I think really needs re-thinking is 4th/Colorado. 26th/Olympic is simple and already accurate to the location. Bergamot may be the historically correct title, but it's a 50+ year old name that no one outside the area knows. Not exactly doing the station any favors. We don't need another "Memorial Park" on our hands (which needs to be changed to "Old Town Pasadena" stat). 17th/Colorado I think is fine, or perhaps 17th Street Santa Monica. 4th/Colorado - Santa Monica Pier & Promenade - accurate to the location and quiets those who find "Downtown Santa Monica" misleading.
|
|
|
Post by RMoses on Jan 7, 2013 13:46:19 GMT -8
Using Santa Monica as the lead is confusing. We don't name any of our other stations like this like on the Gold Line in Pasadena or the Blue in Long Beach. Besides, people will think they are next to Santa Monica Blvd. which they are not. Agreed. List the street destination first, then use Santa Monica if applicable. Honestly, the only one that I think really needs re-thinking is 4th/Colorado. 26th/Olympic is simple and already accurate to the location. Bergamot may be the historically correct title, but it's a 50+ year old name that no one outside the area knows. Not exactly doing the station any favors. We don't need another "Memorial Park" on our hands (which needs to be changed to "Old Town Pasadena" stat). 17th/Colorado I think is fine, or perhaps 17th Street Santa Monica. 4th/Colorado - Santa Monica Pier & Promenade - accurate to the location and quiets those who find "Downtown Santa Monica" misleading. If anything, putting Promenade in the title would be misleading. Riders would would be looking for 3rd St. Promenade and it is not visible from the station and 3rd St. does not intersect with Colorado, you need to go through SM Place to get there directly. Regarding 17th St., it is safe to assume that most if not all riders seeking to get to SMC have a purpose in going there and are literate, thus even naming the station for it at all is redundant. It is not likely someone will see the SMC signage, decide to get off and seek it out.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 7, 2013 14:14:52 GMT -8
If anything, putting Promenade in the title would be misleading. Riders would would be looking for 3rd St. Promenade and it is not visible from the station and 3rd St. does not intersect with Colorado, you need to go through SM Place to get there directly. Fair point, but the Promenade is still within close proximity to the station. A couple of signs directing people towards the Promenade would more than solve issues with directions. It's not like SMC, which is a good walk away from 17th and Colorado.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on Jan 7, 2013 14:37:04 GMT -8
The names given by SM sound fine. Most people don't care too much about the names anyway. I liked National/Palms to be named Palms because Los Angeles' oldest neighborhood (outside Downtown) was destined to be forgotten otherwise.
A funny story: Some ladies on the Expo train were discussing the name "Culver City Station" and how the station is not really in Culver City and this name didn't make sense. The one more familiar with the line said that they were expanding the line and this station was only temporarily named so -- there would be a real Culver City Station once it was extended. I guess people do care about the accuracy of the names. LOL
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Jan 8, 2013 11:39:41 GMT -8
Having ridden with many novice riders before, I can say that the station names are puzzling (if not frustrating) for them.
Station names like Redondo Beach, Aviation/LAX, Memorial Park, and arguably Culver City are either unfamiliar, not accurate to the location, or misleading since the indicated destinations are a distance away (be it long or short).
This is why including SMC in any part of 17th/Colorado is foolish. It might attract patrons to the station, but only for them to find the college is good walk away, leaving them annoyed and confused.
As for 4th/Colorado, I would be fine with "Santa Monica Pier," "Santa Monica Pier & Promenade," or just plain "4th Street Santa Monica." Including "Downtown" in the moniker makes it less clear because everyone has their own opinion on just where Santa Monica's "Downtown" really is (some might say 4th/Wilshire, or 4th/Broadway, etc.).
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Jan 8, 2013 23:21:56 GMT -8
Another example is simply creating new names.
Declare the nearby intersection "Dinosaur Square". The transit stop then opens as Dinosaur, in reference of course, to the square.
Within 5 years everybody will refer to that immediate area as Dinosaur, without any thought to the history of the name. Suddenly, you have restaurants saying "Find us in Santa Monica, Downtown LA and Dinosaur".
gets rid of the whole intersection naming crap.
|
|
|
Post by bzcat on Jan 9, 2013 12:18:11 GMT -8
Agreed. List the street destination first, then use Santa Monica if applicable. Honestly, the only one that I think really needs re-thinking is 4th/Colorado. 26th/Olympic is simple and already accurate to the location. Bergamot may be the historically correct title, but it's a 50+ year old name that no one outside the area knows. Not exactly doing the station any favors. We don't need another "Memorial Park" on our hands (which needs to be changed to "Old Town Pasadena" stat). 17th/Colorado I think is fine, or perhaps 17th Street Santa Monica. 4th/Colorado - Santa Monica Pier & Promenade - accurate to the location and quiets those who find "Downtown Santa Monica" misleading. Santa Monica has big development plans for the area around Bergamot station so that name will be relevant again in a few years. I think it is good planning ahead of time to rename it to Bergamot. 17th Street is really in the middle of nowhere and one of the earlier option was actually "Memorial Park" (which is next to the station). Obviously someone nixed that. I agree that SMC is somewhat misleading but as I pointed out earlier, it is still walking distance (I walk from Pico to Olympic almost everyday... it's not that far). 4th street name change is not at all controversial. It is in Downtown Santa Monica. Most people will agree that Downtown starts at Wilshire and ends at Civic Center (Olympic) so the station is right stab in the middle of Downtown.
|
|
|
Post by fissure on Jan 9, 2013 23:16:53 GMT -8
Another example is simply creating new names. Declare the nearby intersection "Dinosaur Square". The transit stop then opens as Dinosaur, in reference of course, to the square. Within 5 years everybody will refer to that immediate area as Dinosaur, without any thought to the history of the name. Suddenly, you have restaurants saying "Find us in Santa Monica, Downtown LA and Dinosaur". gets rid of the whole intersection naming crap. Coming from the Boston area, I can't agree more. Would be awesome if the new Purple Line stations were named like Alewife/Davis/Porter/Harvard/Central/Kendall on the MBTA Red Line. The intersection naming convention gives really low information entropy when we should try to maximize it. If all the station names are Wilshire/<something> or Hollywood/<something> then the first 9-10 characters of the name convey zero useful information. You should be able to remember *part* of a name and still have a good chance of remembering the correct one. And if you're going to name it after the cross street, include the "St/Ave/Blvd" in the name!
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on Jan 9, 2013 23:31:16 GMT -8
^Boston is exactly where the idea comes from. The stations reference the square, and yet people use the station as a way to reference the entire area.
Imagine if in LA people gave directions based on transit stops, instead of auto streets.
Instead of saying "Meet you at Hollywood and Vine" its "meet you at Mitrix"
|
|
|
Post by TransportationZ on Jan 10, 2013 0:48:14 GMT -8
4th street name change is not at all controversial. It is in Downtown Santa Monica. Most people will agree that Downtown starts at Wilshire and ends at Civic Center (Olympic) so the station is right stab in the middle of Downtown. Plus, it's not like we are going to see another rail station in downtown Santa Monica for atleast a few decades.
|
|
|
Post by TransportationZ on Jan 10, 2013 0:50:23 GMT -8
^Boston is exactly where the idea comes from. The stations reference the square, and yet people use the station as a way to reference the entire area. Imagine if in LA people gave directions based on transit stops, instead of auto streets. Instead of saying "Meet you at Hollywood and Vine" its "meet you at Mitrix" Bad example, since Hollywood and Vine is actually an intersection that is famous for well....being an intersection. If anything, I would kill the "/" and call it "Hollywood and Vine" or "Hollywood & Vine".
|
|
K 22
Full Member
Posts: 117
|
Post by K 22 on Jan 10, 2013 9:58:52 GMT -8
Coming from the Boston area, I can't agree more. Would be awesome if the new Purple Line stations were named like Alewife/Davis/Porter/Harvard/Central/Kendall on the MBTA Red Line. The intersection naming convention gives really low information entropy when we should try to maximize it. If all the station names are Wilshire/<something> or Hollywood/<something> then the first 9-10 characters of the name convey zero useful information. You should be able to remember *part* of a name and still have a good chance of remembering the correct one. And if you're going to name it after the cross street, include the "St/Ave/Blvd" in the name! Well the "Hollywood/<station here>" and the "Vermont/<station>" ones are OK since they're on those streets for a few stations. The Wilshire and Expo ones definitely don't need the cross streets. Also - I prefer "Normandie" over "Wilshire/Normandie" but I think calling it "Wilshire Blvd/Normandie Av" is a bit more convoluted and too "New York-ish".
|
|
|
Post by metrocenter on Jan 10, 2013 15:15:34 GMT -8
^Boston is exactly where the idea comes from. The stations reference the square, and yet people use the station as a way to reference the entire area. Imagine if in LA people gave directions based on transit stops, instead of auto streets. Instead of saying "Meet you at Hollywood and Vine" its "meet you at Mitrix" This is how it ought to be, IMO. In Boston's case, these names originated back when squares were the focal point of community life. This is what urban planners should be aiming for, IMO. Unfortunately, now the whole mentality revolves around streets. I suggested "Santa Monica 17th Street" to make the station name unambiguous. But really "Santa Monica Memorial Park" is better, because it suggests an actual place in the neighborhood. I dislike "SMC" in the name because SMC is not even in the same neighborhood (it is a mile away, the other side of a freeway). As a great example, "Imperial/Wilmington/Rosa Parks" (what a mouthful) was recently rechristened as "Willowbrook". Much better, not only because it is unambiguous and more simple, but because it puts the Willowbrook community on the map and gives it a focal point. In other words, it's better for the same reason that "Palms" is better than "Palms/National". It connects the station to a living place, not a pair of coordinates on a grid.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on Jan 10, 2013 16:56:29 GMT -8
Boston doesn't have a street grid like we do. For us naming stations after intersections is enormously useful to riders that need to make bus connections and travel to unfamiliar places. Our buses travel on grids too after all.
Do any of the people here that favor neighborhood and destination names for relatively obscure locations ever ride buses? I honestly can't understand sacrificing something that is very useful in way finding for an idealistic vision of community building through train station names.
|
|
|
Post by Dan Wentzel on Jan 10, 2013 17:07:49 GMT -8
I cannot agree that 17th Street is THAT long a walk to Santa Monica College. But then I've lived in NYC and London where I was used to walking such distances from rail stations.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 10, 2013 21:42:20 GMT -8
Boston doesn't have a street grid like we do. For us naming stations after intersections is enormously useful to riders that need to make bus connections and travel to unfamiliar places. Our buses travel on grids too after all. Do any of the people here that favor neighborhood and destination names for relatively obscure locations ever ride buses? I honestly can't understand sacrificing something that is very useful in way finding for an idealistic vision of community building through train station names. Lets use Mariachi Plaza as an example. It defines a community and now more people in LA are familiar with a Mariachi Plaza in East LA giving the area a sense of pride. It sounds way better and more useful than 1st/Boyle Station. Mariachi Plaza is a home, a place, and community............not an intersection. Greater people in LA now associates mariachis with Mariachi Plaza station and helps make LA a cooler city.
|
|
|
Post by TransportationZ on Jan 10, 2013 21:43:15 GMT -8
Boston doesn't have a street grid like we do. For us naming stations after intersections is enormously useful to riders that need to make bus connections and travel to unfamiliar places. Our buses travel on grids too after all. Do any of the people here that favor neighborhood and destination names for relatively obscure locations ever ride buses? I honestly can't understand sacrificing something that is very useful in way finding for an idealistic vision of community building through train station names. Excellent point. When I know my destination is off a Western, and that I need to take a bus that runs on Western, seeing "Expo/Western" makes it easy to figure out where I should get off to make the transfer.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on Jan 10, 2013 21:45:02 GMT -8
I cannot agree that 17th Street is THAT long a walk to Santa Monica College. But then I've lived in NYC and London where I was used to walking such distances from rail stations. But do rail stations in NY or London attach names of destinations more than a half mile to its station? It's not a matter of distance, it's more a discussion of relevance.
|
|
|
Post by TransportationZ on Jan 10, 2013 21:47:35 GMT -8
Boston doesn't have a street grid like we do. For us naming stations after intersections is enormously useful to riders that need to make bus connections and travel to unfamiliar places. Our buses travel on grids too after all. Do any of the people here that favor neighborhood and destination names for relatively obscure locations ever ride buses? I honestly can't understand sacrificing something that is very useful in way finding for an idealistic vision of community building through train station names. Lets use Mariachi Plaza as an example. It defines a community and now more people in LA are familiar with a Mariachi Plaza in East LA giving the area a sense of pride. It sounds way better and more useful than 1st/Boyle Station. Mariachi Plaza is a home, a place, and community............not an intersection. Greater people in LA now associates mariachis with Mariachi Plaza station and helps make LA a cooler city. Both of you make excellent points. I think it should be a case by case basis. Not every station naming convention is right for every station. Look at Seattle's Central Link Light Rail. Some stations like "Beacon Hill" or the soon to be open "Capitol Hill" denote a community station, while other represent major streets.
|
|
|
Post by fissure on Jan 10, 2013 22:06:44 GMT -8
Boston doesn't have a street grid like we do. For us naming stations after intersections is enormously useful to riders that need to make bus connections and travel to unfamiliar places. Our buses travel on grids too after all. Do any of the people here that favor neighborhood and destination names for relatively obscure locations ever ride buses? I honestly can't understand sacrificing something that is very useful in way finding for an idealistic vision of community building through train station names. - I think you may be overestimating how well people in general understand the grid. Per en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_research some people navigate more based on landmarks. I would guess that most posters here are in the upper percentiles when it comes to being able to visualize LA's street grid, so we should keep that in mind. How we navigate isn't how everyone else does.
- In the age of smart phones and GPS, people are just following the directions step-by-step most of the time, so what difference does it make to them if the station is called Museum Row or Wilshire/Fairfax?
- DC also has a street grid, but doesn't use intersection names. They use cross streets sometimes, but not like our station names.
|
|