Post by bennyp81 on Jun 20, 2005 11:28:35 GMT -8
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 21st 4:32 AM
FINALLY, L.A. is going to add route and schedule info to its bus stops, just like in any other world-class city. Even people that would consider taking a bus once in awhile don't do it in L.A. because it's too hard to find out where they go and when they come!
Anyway, all 18,000 MTA bus stops should have big yellow plastic signs with that info by the end of the year.
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Feb 22nd 5:15 AM
Roberto are you serious? You mean L.A. DIDN'T have schedules at it's bus stops?
Shortly after moving to S.D. I was forced to take public transit for a couple of years and most all bus stop shelters have schedules with maps of the bus route, and that was back in 1990! And L.A. didn't? WOW!
Funny the things one takes for granted.
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 22nd 5:27 AM
Still don't! All that's usually posted is the number of the bus, nothing else.
PForce
User ID: 0596854 Feb 23rd 5:24 PM
Santa Monica Bus Lines has had schedules posted at stops for years. Often, multiple schedules are shown. On the other hand, Santa Monica is very small compared to the huge expanse of LA county.
Robreto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 23rd 5:40 PM
Yes, some of the smaller bus lines have schedules and routes posted, but the MTA did not.
And I don't cut the MTA any slack because L.A. is "too huge" ... other big cities like Paris and London have route maps and schedules posted at all bus stops and in the shelters. If you want a user-friendly system, it's a must ... you can't expect everybody to memorize the route and schedule info for the entire MTA bus network!
And in L.A., it's just another reason why there are very few occasional bus riders ... when those people walk by a bus stop, they have no idea where the bus goes and what time it comes, so how are they going to take it?
Andrew S
User ID: 0269124 Feb 23rd 7:30 PM
Smaller does seem to be better, doesn't it? Is there any way of delivering good service in a larger community like LA? I wish there were some measuring sticks that we had to monitor and improve service. That would introduce an element of accountability. An example of such a measuring stick would be service interval.
Step 1: With sensors on each bus, it would be possible to monitor electronically whenever a number N bus passed a particular location (where there would be a sensor "reader").
Step 2: Investigate on a real time basis why intervals exceed a certain standard.
Step 3: Report to the travelling public.
Robert
User ID: 9370173 Feb 24th 12:15 AM
Andrew,
Look at the MTA websit to learn more about Advanced Transportation Management System (ATMS):
www.mta.net/other_info/atms/default.htm
This is a start to get more info that most of us care about.
Bob
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Feb 24th 1:48 AM
Along with schedules at most bus stop shelters, which literally are schedules opened up to show time and bus route, at some major stops are color maps showing all the bus, Trolley and Coaster lines in a particular area i.e. the downtown, a specific neighborhood in the general vicinity of downtown etc. I sure it's because SD is a tourist town and the city officials take tourism very seriously, so they do little things like that to make it easier for the tourist rather than the locals.
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 24th 2:08 AM
They do this EVERYWHERE, L.A. was the sad exception. And it's for the locals just as much as the tourists ... when I am near a bus stop other than the 401, 76, 78, or 79, I have NO idea where the bus goes or when it comes ... and I am not a tourist!
I can't wait to see those signs ... I bet occasional ridership will increase.
Frank
User ID: 2087514 Jul 30th 1:11 PM
In Orange County, OCTA is in the process of adding schedules to bus stop signs. The process will take some time, and the "order of battle" is to start with those lines that have the most riders and work down the list from there.
Frank
PaulC
User ID: 0206274 Jul 30th 3:53 PM
Hey whats keeping our MTA from doing the same? is it the budget or lack of motivation?
Paul
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Aug 6th 3:54 AM
From San Gabriel Valley Tribune
Wednesday, August 6, 2003
Where do buses go?
Those who love and depend on the bus lines wonder why everyone is so gaga over the Gold Line. It's simple and it's not all about the romance and fun factor of trains. It's because potential riders can actually see where the trains go. There are stations and tracks to look at and plenty of publicity in the paper. And, joy of joy, there are actual maps in the stations showing where all the light-rail lines go.
Buses, on the other hand, appear as mysteriously as ghosts and disappear from sight headed who knows where. If you are lucky enough, or diligent enough, to discover the number of a bus line near you, you can find a map (if someone will tell you where) that will show the single line as a wiggle down the brochure. No other lines are represented. Certainly the whole system is not laid out for you to see. There are no line maps posted at the stops and certainly no schedules.
The MTA Web site is hard to figure out it locked up and finally crashed my ISP. A call to the MTA finally gave me the information I was seeking: No, there is no bus that travels along the Foothill (210) Freeway and across the Ventura (134) Freeway. If you want to commute from Pasadena to Westlake Village, you're just going to have to get in a car and drive like all the other folks jamming up those freeways during commute hours.
The westbound commute problem aside, what the MTA has is a marketing problem when it comes to its bus routes. They need to get the information out there they need a good marketing strategy that lets the potential customer know exactly what their service offers. A few weeks ago, I was in a Hollywood subway station preparing to take a joy ride, and I heard a woman talking to her companions. They were looking at the nice big colorful light-rail map displayed there. The woman had just realized that she could go visit her sister by taking light rail. She was quite excited at the prospect. Without that chance encounter with the map, she wouldn't have known she could do that. Isn't that what good marketing is all about?
I've taken the light rail and MetroLink. I've never taken the bus. I would, if I could figure out where they go.
Maggie Ogilvie
Sierra Madre
John
User ID: 9510053 Aug 6th 7:44 AM
Thank goodness it is so easy to travel by Metro Bus! I remember when I first started commuting regularly by bus during one of the various gas crises. It had reached the point where I felt there was no viable alternative left but to call the RTD and try to find out how to get to work by bus the next morning. They gave me the necessary information, I tried it the next morning, and that was the turning point toward my eventual decision to just sell my car and become a transit user/supporter!
PForce
User ID: 1808544 Aug 6th 1:50 PM
The LA bus system has been like this since the 1950s. There has never been a serious effort here to educate the public about its bus lines, or to make it easy to get trip information or where lines connect. I don't know how many times I have been left stranded by line or schedule changes or the sudden elimination of service. There used to be one place downtown where you could go to get bus schedules for all the lines. It was impossible to see any kind of organizaion by area of the county, and I had to paw through all the schedules to find the one that I needed. The line numbers don't seem to have rhyme or reason.
I believe that the reason for all this is that the bus lines were originally set up as sort of a Potemkin-like system so that the city could say that there was public transit following the demise of the Red cars and trolley system. There was never any serious interest by our leaders in providing real service. Despite all the improvements that have been made to the system (it is 10 times better than it was 20 years ago), it still isn't a serious alternative to anything except walking.
mike wills
User ID: 1181464 Aug 6th 8:06 PM
In fact, they do.
0-99 are locals going to and from downtown. The orientation is anticlockwise, starting with the single figure bus lines that go out from downtown in a northwesterly direction.
100-199 are crosstown eastwest locals. 100-149 operate south of downtown with larger numbers further south. 150-199 operate north of downtown with larger numbers further north.
200-299 are crosstown northsouth locals. 200-249 are west of downtown with larger numbers further west. 250-299 are east of downtown with larger numbers further east.
300-399 are limited. Usually the limited numbers closely resemble the corresponding local numbers.
400-499 are downtown express lines. As with the local downtown routes, the numbers increase in an anticlockwise direction with the 401 (until recently) starting things off heading in a northerly direction.
500-599 are crosstown express lines. I'm not sure how exactly they are organised.
600-699 are special services.
700-799 are metro rapid busses who take their numbers from the corresponding local routes.
800-899 were at one point used to represent metro rail lines.
There are of course exceptions, and, since we don't have a perfect grid system, there is plenty of room for confusion, but with most line numbers I will at least have a rough idea of where they go.
PForce
User ID: 1808544 Aug 6th 9:01 PM
Thanks, Mike. I'll try to remember that there really is a system. I'll spend the next three days memorizing it. There is a God, somewhere, or so I'm told.
John
User ID: 9510053 Aug 6th 10:10 PM
I think it is just SO easy for an Angeleno to get around on the Metro Bus system, it's almost unreal! But I suppose if I were a car culturist, I would probably try to pretend that it was difficult to navigate the Metro Bus system. I mean, ya know.
Frank G.
User ID: 9335603 Aug 6th 11:05 PM
Yeah, John-boy, they're all just faking it to piss you off. Most Angelenos wake up every lousy morning and say, "What can I do to affect John? How can I possibly meet John's exacting standards...?"
PForce
User ID: 1808544 Aug 6th 11:20 PM
Mike,
Excuse my flip answer to your extensive post. This is really good information that I have never seen before, and I imagine that most bus riders haven't either. It must have taken you a lot of time to put that information together, and you must be one of only 10 people in the county who understand the numbering system. Maybe MTA should put out a flyer giving this same information along with the bus schedules, if they haven't already. It's also good to have an idea of the different lines, and what the first digit means.
It's still mind bogling, though.
Peter
mike wills
User ID: 1181464 Aug 7th 1:00 AM
Peter,
No worries about the first reply which I did not think was flip.
I knew the numbering system back when they first reorganised the system (something like 1983). I was a boy at the time, but had an absolute fascination with maps. My Father was also a fanatic about collecting timetables. Both my father in the 80s when we lived in L.A., and myself when I lived in L.A. during the 90s had comprehensive timetable collections.
Saying that, it was not that difficult for us to get the information. The RTD did put out a flyer at the time of the reorganisation, and I've seen it on various brochures since then. Every few months or so, Dad would take a trip downtown or the El Monte station to update his collection. He'd also write into the RTD for new timetables whenever they announced service changes. (They had little brochures with coupons listing the new timetables coming out)
You can find the basic info on their website here: www.mta.net/metro_transit/riders_guide/bus_overview.htm
The subdivisions I outlined above I figured out myself about 8 years ago, when I just sat down with a bus map and worked it out.
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Aug 7th 5:49 AM
WOW! Even 10 years ago here in SD, the bus schedule maps had lines to represent the intersecting bus lines/trolley lines etc. VEry INteresting....
Trust me PForce...It's TRUE!
Mike, are you talking about the former RTD/Greyhound Station on 6th/Main? That was a really nice station. I always wished the upper level with the escalators to the second floor bus bays and schedules on the TV monitors were really a commuter rail station and the buses one saw on the upper level from the street were really RTD trains.
Oh how I loved the RTD!
cj
mike wills
User ID: 1181464 Aug 7th 10:36 AM
We did go to 6th and Main to the RTD headquarters, but we rarely went to the bus station itself.
Your description sounds more like the El Monte busway station, which was more convenient to us, but whose timetable collection was smaller.
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Aug 8th 2:20 AM
No, it was definately the 6th/Main station. That's when the RTD was trying for the 'largest bus system in the world' image, so they built *upscale* bus stations...just before L.A. finally said 'yes' to rail.
PaulC
User ID: 8548253 Dec 30th 1:22 AM
I was wondering why the MTA hasn’t tried to implement a Next Bus type system, so that riders could see when their next bus is arriving. Does anyone know why this is?
Paul
Robert
User ID: 2037954 Dec 30th 3:51 AM
Maybe $$$$$$$$$$$$.
-=†‡÷«{(: ßÔß
}»÷‡†=-
User ID: 9161143 Feb 21st 4:32 AM
FINALLY, L.A. is going to add route and schedule info to its bus stops, just like in any other world-class city. Even people that would consider taking a bus once in awhile don't do it in L.A. because it's too hard to find out where they go and when they come!
Anyway, all 18,000 MTA bus stops should have big yellow plastic signs with that info by the end of the year.
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Feb 22nd 5:15 AM
Roberto are you serious? You mean L.A. DIDN'T have schedules at it's bus stops?
Shortly after moving to S.D. I was forced to take public transit for a couple of years and most all bus stop shelters have schedules with maps of the bus route, and that was back in 1990! And L.A. didn't? WOW!
Funny the things one takes for granted.
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 22nd 5:27 AM
You mean L.A. DIDN'T have schedules at it's bus stops?
Still don't! All that's usually posted is the number of the bus, nothing else.
PForce
User ID: 0596854 Feb 23rd 5:24 PM
Santa Monica Bus Lines has had schedules posted at stops for years. Often, multiple schedules are shown. On the other hand, Santa Monica is very small compared to the huge expanse of LA county.
Robreto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 23rd 5:40 PM
Yes, some of the smaller bus lines have schedules and routes posted, but the MTA did not.
And I don't cut the MTA any slack because L.A. is "too huge" ... other big cities like Paris and London have route maps and schedules posted at all bus stops and in the shelters. If you want a user-friendly system, it's a must ... you can't expect everybody to memorize the route and schedule info for the entire MTA bus network!
And in L.A., it's just another reason why there are very few occasional bus riders ... when those people walk by a bus stop, they have no idea where the bus goes and what time it comes, so how are they going to take it?
Andrew S
User ID: 0269124 Feb 23rd 7:30 PM
On the other hand, Santa Monica is very small compared to the huge expanse of LA county.
Smaller does seem to be better, doesn't it? Is there any way of delivering good service in a larger community like LA? I wish there were some measuring sticks that we had to monitor and improve service. That would introduce an element of accountability. An example of such a measuring stick would be service interval.
Step 1: With sensors on each bus, it would be possible to monitor electronically whenever a number N bus passed a particular location (where there would be a sensor "reader").
Step 2: Investigate on a real time basis why intervals exceed a certain standard.
Step 3: Report to the travelling public.
Robert
User ID: 9370173 Feb 24th 12:15 AM
Andrew,
Look at the MTA websit to learn more about Advanced Transportation Management System (ATMS):
www.mta.net/other_info/atms/default.htm
This is a start to get more info that most of us care about.
Bob
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Feb 24th 1:48 AM
Yes, some of the smaller bus lines have schedules and routes posted, but the MTA did not.
Along with schedules at most bus stop shelters, which literally are schedules opened up to show time and bus route, at some major stops are color maps showing all the bus, Trolley and Coaster lines in a particular area i.e. the downtown, a specific neighborhood in the general vicinity of downtown etc. I sure it's because SD is a tourist town and the city officials take tourism very seriously, so they do little things like that to make it easier for the tourist rather than the locals.
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Feb 24th 2:08 AM
I sure it's because SD is a tourist town and the city officials take tourism very seriously, so they do little things like that to make it easier for the tourist rather than the locals.
They do this EVERYWHERE, L.A. was the sad exception. And it's for the locals just as much as the tourists ... when I am near a bus stop other than the 401, 76, 78, or 79, I have NO idea where the bus goes or when it comes ... and I am not a tourist!
I can't wait to see those signs ... I bet occasional ridership will increase.
Frank
User ID: 2087514 Jul 30th 1:11 PM
In Orange County, OCTA is in the process of adding schedules to bus stop signs. The process will take some time, and the "order of battle" is to start with those lines that have the most riders and work down the list from there.
Frank
PaulC
User ID: 0206274 Jul 30th 3:53 PM
Hey whats keeping our MTA from doing the same? is it the budget or lack of motivation?
Paul
Roberto
User ID: 9161143 Aug 6th 3:54 AM
From San Gabriel Valley Tribune
Wednesday, August 6, 2003
Where do buses go?
Those who love and depend on the bus lines wonder why everyone is so gaga over the Gold Line. It's simple and it's not all about the romance and fun factor of trains. It's because potential riders can actually see where the trains go. There are stations and tracks to look at and plenty of publicity in the paper. And, joy of joy, there are actual maps in the stations showing where all the light-rail lines go.
Buses, on the other hand, appear as mysteriously as ghosts and disappear from sight headed who knows where. If you are lucky enough, or diligent enough, to discover the number of a bus line near you, you can find a map (if someone will tell you where) that will show the single line as a wiggle down the brochure. No other lines are represented. Certainly the whole system is not laid out for you to see. There are no line maps posted at the stops and certainly no schedules.
The MTA Web site is hard to figure out it locked up and finally crashed my ISP. A call to the MTA finally gave me the information I was seeking: No, there is no bus that travels along the Foothill (210) Freeway and across the Ventura (134) Freeway. If you want to commute from Pasadena to Westlake Village, you're just going to have to get in a car and drive like all the other folks jamming up those freeways during commute hours.
The westbound commute problem aside, what the MTA has is a marketing problem when it comes to its bus routes. They need to get the information out there they need a good marketing strategy that lets the potential customer know exactly what their service offers. A few weeks ago, I was in a Hollywood subway station preparing to take a joy ride, and I heard a woman talking to her companions. They were looking at the nice big colorful light-rail map displayed there. The woman had just realized that she could go visit her sister by taking light rail. She was quite excited at the prospect. Without that chance encounter with the map, she wouldn't have known she could do that. Isn't that what good marketing is all about?
I've taken the light rail and MetroLink. I've never taken the bus. I would, if I could figure out where they go.
Maggie Ogilvie
Sierra Madre
John
User ID: 9510053 Aug 6th 7:44 AM
Thank goodness it is so easy to travel by Metro Bus! I remember when I first started commuting regularly by bus during one of the various gas crises. It had reached the point where I felt there was no viable alternative left but to call the RTD and try to find out how to get to work by bus the next morning. They gave me the necessary information, I tried it the next morning, and that was the turning point toward my eventual decision to just sell my car and become a transit user/supporter!
PForce
User ID: 1808544 Aug 6th 1:50 PM
The LA bus system has been like this since the 1950s. There has never been a serious effort here to educate the public about its bus lines, or to make it easy to get trip information or where lines connect. I don't know how many times I have been left stranded by line or schedule changes or the sudden elimination of service. There used to be one place downtown where you could go to get bus schedules for all the lines. It was impossible to see any kind of organizaion by area of the county, and I had to paw through all the schedules to find the one that I needed. The line numbers don't seem to have rhyme or reason.
I believe that the reason for all this is that the bus lines were originally set up as sort of a Potemkin-like system so that the city could say that there was public transit following the demise of the Red cars and trolley system. There was never any serious interest by our leaders in providing real service. Despite all the improvements that have been made to the system (it is 10 times better than it was 20 years ago), it still isn't a serious alternative to anything except walking.
mike wills
User ID: 1181464 Aug 6th 8:06 PM
The line numbers don't seem to have rhyme or reason.
In fact, they do.
0-99 are locals going to and from downtown. The orientation is anticlockwise, starting with the single figure bus lines that go out from downtown in a northwesterly direction.
100-199 are crosstown eastwest locals. 100-149 operate south of downtown with larger numbers further south. 150-199 operate north of downtown with larger numbers further north.
200-299 are crosstown northsouth locals. 200-249 are west of downtown with larger numbers further west. 250-299 are east of downtown with larger numbers further east.
300-399 are limited. Usually the limited numbers closely resemble the corresponding local numbers.
400-499 are downtown express lines. As with the local downtown routes, the numbers increase in an anticlockwise direction with the 401 (until recently) starting things off heading in a northerly direction.
500-599 are crosstown express lines. I'm not sure how exactly they are organised.
600-699 are special services.
700-799 are metro rapid busses who take their numbers from the corresponding local routes.
800-899 were at one point used to represent metro rail lines.
There are of course exceptions, and, since we don't have a perfect grid system, there is plenty of room for confusion, but with most line numbers I will at least have a rough idea of where they go.
PForce
User ID: 1808544 Aug 6th 9:01 PM
Thanks, Mike. I'll try to remember that there really is a system. I'll spend the next three days memorizing it. There is a God, somewhere, or so I'm told.
John
User ID: 9510053 Aug 6th 10:10 PM
I think it is just SO easy for an Angeleno to get around on the Metro Bus system, it's almost unreal! But I suppose if I were a car culturist, I would probably try to pretend that it was difficult to navigate the Metro Bus system. I mean, ya know.
Frank G.
User ID: 9335603 Aug 6th 11:05 PM
Yeah, John-boy, they're all just faking it to piss you off. Most Angelenos wake up every lousy morning and say, "What can I do to affect John? How can I possibly meet John's exacting standards...?"
PForce
User ID: 1808544 Aug 6th 11:20 PM
Mike,
Excuse my flip answer to your extensive post. This is really good information that I have never seen before, and I imagine that most bus riders haven't either. It must have taken you a lot of time to put that information together, and you must be one of only 10 people in the county who understand the numbering system. Maybe MTA should put out a flyer giving this same information along with the bus schedules, if they haven't already. It's also good to have an idea of the different lines, and what the first digit means.
It's still mind bogling, though.
Peter
mike wills
User ID: 1181464 Aug 7th 1:00 AM
Peter,
No worries about the first reply which I did not think was flip.
I knew the numbering system back when they first reorganised the system (something like 1983). I was a boy at the time, but had an absolute fascination with maps. My Father was also a fanatic about collecting timetables. Both my father in the 80s when we lived in L.A., and myself when I lived in L.A. during the 90s had comprehensive timetable collections.
Saying that, it was not that difficult for us to get the information. The RTD did put out a flyer at the time of the reorganisation, and I've seen it on various brochures since then. Every few months or so, Dad would take a trip downtown or the El Monte station to update his collection. He'd also write into the RTD for new timetables whenever they announced service changes. (They had little brochures with coupons listing the new timetables coming out)
You can find the basic info on their website here: www.mta.net/metro_transit/riders_guide/bus_overview.htm
The subdivisions I outlined above I figured out myself about 8 years ago, when I just sat down with a bus map and worked it out.
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Aug 7th 5:49 AM
you can find a map (if someone will tell you where) that will show the single line as a wiggle down the brochure. No other lines are represented.
WOW! Even 10 years ago here in SD, the bus schedule maps had lines to represent the intersecting bus lines/trolley lines etc. VEry INteresting....
There is a God, somewhere, or so I'm told.
Trust me PForce...It's TRUE!
Every few months or so, Dad would take a trip downtown or the El Monte station to update his collection.
Mike, are you talking about the former RTD/Greyhound Station on 6th/Main? That was a really nice station. I always wished the upper level with the escalators to the second floor bus bays and schedules on the TV monitors were really a commuter rail station and the buses one saw on the upper level from the street were really RTD trains.
He'd also write into the RTD for new timetables whenever they announced service changes. (They had little brochures with coupons listing the new timetables coming out)
Oh how I loved the RTD!
cj
mike wills
User ID: 1181464 Aug 7th 10:36 AM
We did go to 6th and Main to the RTD headquarters, but we rarely went to the bus station itself.
Your description sounds more like the El Monte busway station, which was more convenient to us, but whose timetable collection was smaller.
Cliffj
User ID: 0812164 Aug 8th 2:20 AM
No, it was definately the 6th/Main station. That's when the RTD was trying for the 'largest bus system in the world' image, so they built *upscale* bus stations...just before L.A. finally said 'yes' to rail.
PaulC
User ID: 8548253 Dec 30th 1:22 AM
I was wondering why the MTA hasn’t tried to implement a Next Bus type system, so that riders could see when their next bus is arriving. Does anyone know why this is?
Paul
Robert
User ID: 2037954 Dec 30th 3:51 AM
Maybe $$$$$$$$$$$$.
-=†‡÷«{(: ßÔß
}»÷‡†=-