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Post by bluelineshawn on Mar 16, 2009 17:31:06 GMT -8
From what I understand, the Gold Line Eastside Extension stations are going to have the new fare gates which will only operate with the TAP card. I heard this from colleagues at MTA, but I hope they're wrong. I've only heard that the two underground stations will have fare gates upon opening. They've been pretty clear that those will be the first two. But I drove by the construction today and it looks like they have some sort of structure that would support turnstiles at the Indiana Station. It could have been just artwork, but it was directly in front of the TAP pedestal (is that the right word?) which was already there for some reason and it made a doorway directly in front of it the TAP. A recent meeting agenda did show that fare gates would be installed on all of the lines within the next year or so. I can't remember the order or schedule, but starting in late summer or fall all of the lines would get fare gates over several months. Also of note is that there were lots of construction workers out there today. Probably the most that I've ever seen and I've been by many times.
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Post by Justin Walker on Mar 16, 2009 17:53:44 GMT -8
it was directly in front of the TAP pedestal (is that the right word?) The technical term is "standalone validator" or "SAV".
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Post by wakko11 on Mar 19, 2009 14:06:43 GMT -8
From what I understand, the Gold Line Eastside Extension stations are going to have the new fare gates which will only operate with the TAP card. I heard this from colleagues at MTA, but I hope they're wrong. I've only heard that the two underground stations will have fare gates upon opening. They've been pretty clear that those will be the first two. But I drove by the construction today and it looks like they have some sort of structure that would support turnstiles at the Indiana Station. It could have been just artwork, but it was directly in front of the TAP pedestal (is that the right word?) which was already there for some reason and it made a doorway directly in front of it the TAP. A recent meeting agenda did show that fare gates would be installed on all of the lines within the next year or so. I can't remember the order or schedule, but starting in late summer or fall all of the lines would get fare gates over several months. Also of note is that there were lots of construction workers out there today. Probably the most that I've ever seen and I've been by many times. So if you have an EZ pass or Metrolink pass (assuming that Metrolink doesn't have TAP in place by June), you will have to pay an additional fare to ride the Gold Line?
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Post by bobdavis on Mar 19, 2009 15:01:16 GMT -8
I sent in an application for a Senior Tap card at least 3 weeks ago (along with photo and driver's license copy) and haven't received anything back. Could the ID processing folks be "up to their ears in alligators" or does it always take a long time?
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Post by Transit Coalition on Mar 19, 2009 22:19:44 GMT -8
I sent in an application for a Senior Tap card at least 3 weeks ago (along with photo and driver's license copy) and haven't received anything back. Could the ID processing folks be "up to their ears in alligators" or does it always take a long time? The direction on the application form states in part, under SUBMITTING YOUR APPLICATIONSubmit your completed application packet in person to any of the following Metro Customer Centers listed below, or mail to: TAP Service Center PO Box 811310 Los Angeles, CA 90081-1310 “TAP Reduced Fare Cards will be mailed to eligible applicants after verification has been completed. Normal processing time is 20 business days for applications dropped off at a TAP Customer Center. Please allow additional time for mailed applications.” Translation: Metro to English: Allow 4 to 5 weeks after day of mailing to get your card. My calculations show you mailed your application on February 25. You should be seeing your card about April 3. Let us know if it is sooner.
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Post by bobdavis on Apr 12, 2009 22:11:30 GMT -8
It's now April 12 and no card yet. Editor's Note: Send me a note off line and I can follow up. I will say that senior TAP cards are rolling out, so you might be getting yours in the next few days. We will post the answer right here.
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Post by bobdavis on Apr 15, 2009 20:28:49 GMT -8
TAP card arrived (postmarked St. Paul, Minn). Now to read the instructions and we're all set.
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Post by wakko11 on Apr 16, 2009 13:37:17 GMT -8
TAP card arrived (postmarked St. Paul, Minn). Now to read the instructions and we're all set. Interesting that it's coming from St. Paul. But, then again, the Minneapolis/St. Paul transit system uses the TAP system, too. It's marketed under a different name, though.
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Post by wad on May 11, 2009 3:54:50 GMT -8
But, then again, the Minneapolis/St. Paul transit system uses the TAP system, too. It's marketed under a different name, though. The fulfillment center could be in the Twin Cities. TAP is a system built by San Diego-based defense contractor Cubic, and the very same system is used in San Diego County as well, marketed as the Compass. Interestingly, San Diego County has no plans to install turnstiles to enforce fares paid with the cards.
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Post by rayinla on May 26, 2009 7:17:42 GMT -8
My bad, I should have looked into the way it was going to operate before shooting my mouth off. I didn't realize passengers would have to load their card on the bus. I just assumed the system was sophisticated enough to deduct the fare from the prepaid card every time you tapped and stop deducting once you'd hit the day pass "cap" for that day. I just got back from a three week trip to Queensland and used local transit to travel between my hotel and the studio every day. Their "go card" does essentially what I describe above. You preload your card and "tap" on and off (two validators at the front door and one at the back) to calculate your fare (it's a "zoned" system). Not only is there a significant discount for using the card over the regular cash fare (if paying cash you tell the operator your destination and s/he collects the correct fare) after 10 trips for the week the fare is further discounted by 50%. Metro certainly could have gone with something like this that would have accommodated both the casual rider and commuter using a monthly pass.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 1, 2009 14:23:09 GMT -8
The following is an excerpt from the minutes for the San Fernando Service Sector Meeting in April 2009. I think the information is still largely relevant. Item 7: RECEIVED update TAP Reduced Fares by Jim Pachan, Director, TAP Technical System.Fare Product Rollout* Over 400 vendors converted from selling paper passes to TAP cards * Over half of the 75 discount vendor sites serving city halls and senior centers have been upgraded. * Monthly and weekly pass conversion is pretty well transitioned for the most part. * The Metro Passes by Mail program is still in the transition phase. * Seniors and disabled began transitioning in January. Over 25,000 senior and 35,000 disabled applications have been distributed. * College and Vocational School riders are mostly transitioned. * Day pass conversion began at 11:59pm, Tuesday, April 14. It was by far the largest transition effort to date. Riders asking for a day pass are now issued a reloadable, plastic TAP card and are asked to continue reloading it each time they need to ride transit. * Elementary, middle and high school students will begin the transition over summer. Officials from the Los Angeles Unified School District have met with TAP Operations staff to find ways to ease the transition, considering LAUSD is the largest potential program participant. * A pilot program with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a participant in the Metro Mail program, has proven successful. Online TAP management systems that allow transit pass program coordinators to order only what is needed have replaced the previously more arduous paper reconcilement system. * EZ Pass conversion to the TAP card will likely begin in Fall 2009.* TAP usage has increased by more than four million taps for a one-year period ending February 28, 2009. * Monthly TAP pass sales have also increased by more than 20,000 in the one-year period ending February 28, 2009, which has leveled off any major increases in TAP sales for now. Municipal Operator Conversion* A regional central data control system was installed in Summer 2008 * Metro moved its TAP data to that system in fall of 2008 * TAP participants Santa Clarita Transit and Culver CityBus added their systems to the regional computer in December 2008 and January 2009 respectively. * One operator from the region will be added per month until all participating municipal operators have been included. TAP Operations staff will also continue working with member transit agencies of the Local Transit Systems Subcommittee (a consortium of smaller local transit operators throughout the County), Metrolink, and Access Services, Inc., in order to find alternatives (such as DCU lite validators) that will allow for the TAP card to be deployed as a truly regional fare card on all county transit systems. Rail Gating* Creation of Metro gates involved four teams: technical integration, civil design and engineering, lease agreement development, and maintenance and technical support. * Mariachi Plaza and Soto Stations on the Gold Line Eastside Extension will begin operation in June of 2009.* Remaining gate installation will begin in June 2009 and be completed by December 2009.* Stations receiving new gates include all Red and Green Line station and select Blue and Gold Line stations. * Paper TAP card applications are being explored. Some of these could include one-way rides, day passes and interagency transfers. Promotional and Future Programs* Co-branded promotional cards with promotional artwork have been explored as a way to partner with local companies in order to increase the number of patrons or customers riding transit. * A prepaid debit card will be initiated with Visa, International to create a co-branded TAP Visa Card. Visa will absorb the cost of the card, install self-service kiosks to allow customers to manage their TAP account as well as make both transit and general retail purchases on one card. * Low cost limited use technologies such as Paper TAP and adhesive TAP stickers (which can be applied to cellular phones) will be explored to allow for even more widespread use of the TAP technology.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 1, 2009 18:32:20 GMT -8
Might as well post an opinion here. The biggest failure of the TAP rollout so far has been the the reported inability to purchase and reload day passes. I haven't tried, but if that's true I consider the rollout a failure because a basic and very common fare has been eliminated. Also as reported in the updates, revenue dropped after TAP was rolled out. They really need to get this working right.
One of the gating updates - the last one I think - had the number of stations that will get fare gates. IINM it was equal to the number of elevated stations plus the Memorial cut station, so that's my guess on the fare gates. None of the street level stations on the gold and blue lines will get fare gates which makes sense.
Also regarding gating and fare gates how are people with paper day passes bought on any of the other rail lines going to be able to exit at stations with gates? My understanding is that the gold line TVM's for the East LA extension will sell TAP cards, but what about everyone else? My impression is that TAP was unveiled because Metro was tired of waiting. They obviously haven't worked out all of the bugs.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 2, 2009 8:06:00 GMT -8
Might as well post an opinion here. The biggest failure of the TAP rollout so far has been the the reported inability to purchase and reload day passes. I haven't tried, but if that's true I consider the rollout a failure because a basic and very common fare has been eliminated. Also as reported in the updates, revenue dropped after TAP was rolled out. They really need to get this working right. I agree, day passes must work on TAP, or I would consider TAP unsuccessful. In addition, TAP must be usable for single rides (debit system).
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Post by losangeles2319 on Jun 2, 2009 14:00:19 GMT -8
What do you mean when you say Day Passes? Like Metro Day Passes Because i've used them a couple time with my TAP card and its worked fine.
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Post by Justin Walker on Jun 2, 2009 15:11:40 GMT -8
I agree, day passes must work on TAP, or I would consider TAP unsuccessful. In addition, TAP must be usable for single rides (debit system). TAP already works just fine for both day passes and simple debit. Very convenient. They just need to make enough TAP cards available at enough locations (including all buses and rail TVM's).
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Post by roadtrainer on Jun 2, 2009 17:14:47 GMT -8
it was directly in front of the TAP pedestal (is that the right word?) The technical term is "standalone validator" or "SAV". They put the machines far away from the stairs at the Metro Aviation Station. And when you get off the 439 or the 626 you go to run past the ticket machines and tap your tap and then run upstairs to catch your train, what is bad is that i missed one train because i had to run over there to tap my tap!
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 2, 2009 17:46:49 GMT -8
What do you mean when you say Day Passes? Like Metro Day Passes Because i've used them a couple time with my TAP card and its worked fine. Huh? What other kind of day pass would I mean in a TAP thread? I haven't used them, but people here and on other forums have mentioned that day passes on TAP cards are hard to buy and reload. I don't know the true story and that's why I qualified my post with "if".
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 3, 2009 10:56:13 GMT -8
I agree, day passes must work on TAP, or I would consider TAP unsuccessful. In addition, TAP must be usable for single rides (debit system). TAP already works just fine for both day passes and simple debit. Very convenient. They just need to make enough TAP cards available at enough locations (including all buses and rail TVM's). From the original item I posted, it appeared that TAP could be used for day passes but not for debit. I will admit this item may be out of date. Are you saying that, as of now, a person with a TAP card can load the card with cash value and use it for a single ride? Have you used TAP in this way personally?
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Post by Justin Walker on Jun 3, 2009 14:34:44 GMT -8
Are you saying that, as of now, a person with a TAP card can load the card with cash value and use it for a single ride? Have you used TAP in this way personally? That is precisely what I am saying. (Of course, the qualifier is that only TAP cards issued by Culver City transit currently have the debit function enabled.) Unless I anticipate making 4+ trips on a particular day (the breakeven point for Metro day passes), I simply tap for each Metro ride, and $1.25 is deducted each time. I've held a Culver City TAP card for over a year because the debit feature is so handy. I also have the option of loading a day pass, and $5 is deducted from the debit value.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 3, 2009 14:51:43 GMT -8
Are you saying that, as of now, a person with a TAP card can load the card with cash value and use it for a single ride? Have you used TAP in this way personally? That is precisely what I am saying. (Of course, the qualifier is that only TAP cards issued by Culver City transit currently have the debit function enabled.) That's kind of an important qualifier, wouldn't you agree?
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Post by Justin Walker on Jun 3, 2009 15:18:43 GMT -8
That is precisely what I am saying. (Of course, the qualifier is that only TAP cards issued by Culver City transit currently have the debit function enabled.) That's kind of an important qualifier, wouldn't you agree? I would agree it's a massive qualifier and Metro has clearly not reasoned out the implementation of TAP well at all. I view it more as a glimmer of hope and an indicator of what smart-card technology can do (and eventually will do in LA County?) when implemented correctly.
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Post by metrocenter on Jun 4, 2009 6:53:16 GMT -8
^Evidence of "what smart-card technology can do" can be found by looking at other cities that have already implemented smart cards. London's Oyster Card is an excellent example. Metro, I wouldn't hold it against you if you copied the Oyster Card, feature for feature! (I'd rather have a useful card than throw stones.) The fact that Culver City has implemented a debit system is a very good sign.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 4, 2009 18:42:48 GMT -8
I don't think that I posted this last time, but as I mentioned many agencies are looking to go to a common smart/credit/debit type card that could be used on systems all over the world as well as for purchasing items like a credit card. Metro weighs additional way to pay faresiders could pay fares with bank cards in the future A new way to pay may be on the horizon for Metro riders. The transit agency is considering using bank cards as a form of payment in rail stations, buses and parking lots. According to Metro managers, the idea is to eventually offer an additional fare payment option for riders. Instead of using a SmarTrip® card, paper farecard, or cash on buses customers could also touch or wave their credit card across a card reader and pass through the fare gates in rail stations and fare boxes on buses. Illustration of possibly using credit card in the future to pay fare.The Metro Board on May 28 approved moving forward with solicitation of business proposals to implement other forms of contactless fare payment technology. The technology traditionally includes a small chip embedded in a plastic card or key chain. SmarTrip® cards are embedded with proprietary technology. The new payment system could have a chip that conforms to one set of international standards and could be used at other transit systems if they have the same open technology. Other transit agencies, such as those in New York and Utah are trying payment with bank cards. Metro managers say the advantages for customers are that they won’t have to wait in lines at vending machines, and they are familiar with using credit cards. Tourists and the occasional rider also wouldn’t need to study the fare charts. For the transit agency, it could mean lower fare collection costs if card companies would manage the collection system and customer inquiries. There is also the potential to raise revenue by partnering with credit card companies or banks. Officials will solicit proposals this spring and begin reviewing proposals this summer. In the meantime, SmarTrip® improvements are moving ahead this year. Beginning this fall, SmarTrip software will be upgraded to allow the cards to compute passes, starting with the unlimited weekly bus pass. Other improvements include launching a SmarTrip® Web site and advance the interactive voice response system at the customer service center. Customers will be able to access card balances, transaction history and report lost or stolen cards.
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Post by ieko on Jun 19, 2009 20:00:38 GMT -8
I saw a document today that essentially said that Torrance Transit doesn't think it'll have TAP until 2012...
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 19, 2009 20:13:49 GMT -8
Are you saying that, as of now, a person with a TAP card can load the card with cash value and use it for a single ride? Have you used TAP in this way personally? That is precisely what I am saying. (Of course, the qualifier is that only TAP cards issued by Culver City transit currently have the debit function enabled.) Unless I anticipate making 4+ trips on a particular day (the breakeven point for Metro day passes), I simply tap for each Metro ride, and $1.25 is deducted each time. I've held a Culver City TAP card for over a year because the debit feature is so handy. I also have the option of loading a day pass, and $5 is deducted from the debit value. I got my tap card from culver city yesterday. The debit feature works great on metro.
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Post by dasubergeek on Jul 7, 2009 21:21:48 GMT -8
Unbelievable.
If I want a TAP card (because I no longer take Metrolink often enough to have a monthly pass with E-Z Transit Pass), I am supposed to go onto taptogo.com and pay $62 for a monthly pass, plus $2 for the card?
I went to the Metro Customer Centre in Union Station on a jaunt through downtown last week. Two hundred people in line. I'd have been there for hours waiting.
I love the idea of the Culver City card but one has to go to Culver City to get it, it looks like. And Culver City is not really en route to anywhere I go, ever.
I understand about phased rollouts -- I work in IT -- and I'm a pretty savvy transit user. I love my Octopus card like an arm or an ear; I have mastered the MTR messenger-bag bump in Hong Kong. But I don't understand why this is so hard for LACMTA. It confuses me, and if it confuses me it will be a huge, upsetting mystery to some tourist who has just arrived at LAX and trying to get to, say, Hollywood.
What a disappointment.
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Post by ieko on Jul 7, 2009 22:35:19 GMT -8
Unbelievable. If I want a TAP card (because I no longer take Metrolink often enough to have a monthly pass with E-Z Transit Pass).... Not to get off topic but, you can take Metrolink with an EZ Pass???
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Post by spokker on Jul 7, 2009 22:44:02 GMT -8
No. The monthly passes are also EZ Transit Passes. You can still use your one way and round-trip Metrolink tickets to board Metro bus and rail until the fare gates go into effect.
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Post by dasubergeek on Jul 8, 2009 13:56:05 GMT -8
According to OCTA, TAP cards are accepted on any bus operated on a line that goes into LA County. I personally have never seen this actually happen but I figured if I can get a debit-style TAP card at some point I can use it on the 46 bus, which is my local bus, which goes into Hawaiian Gardens (why, oh WHY does it not go all the way to LGB??).
It wasn't too busy so I asked the driver about it and he said that he's only seen it once, and he just let the person board rather than try and figure it out.
Sheesh.
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Post by spokker on Jul 22, 2009 22:44:58 GMT -8
Does TAP track which stations you've tapped into? Let's say I commit a crime and the police find a TAP card on me. Can they subpoena the information connected with the card to see where I've been?
Conversely, can I use my TAP card as an alibi? I mean, I can tell my lawyer I was at Wilshire/Western instead of killing my wife and he/she can force Metro to give up that info to save my ass from prison gang rape.
Anybody know?
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