Breda Light Rail Cars

[bluelineshawn]

No offense, but the cars did not enter all day service in April so that's another in a long list of delays. AFAIK they are currently running a few afternoon runs weekdays only. But the technician that I spoke to today said that they are very close to finishing testing and would then start on the next two cars. He stated the goal as 2 cars per month just as Mike Cannell explained to Mr. Reed.

Here are a few pics that I took today. The interior of the cars is very similar to the P865 and P2000, but is an improvement over both. A few more longitudinal seats allowing for a few more standees. The car seemed to operate fine. I didn't notice any braking issues as some others have reported. The car was very quiet. Except for the AC. That was a little noisier than the other cars. The controls in the cab look very high tech. The destination signs are very readable. The interior signs had the wrong station name for each stop, but I think that was operator error.

[snuffy]

>The car was very quiet. Except for the AC

The last night, I had a chance to ride on that car and everything was fine expect the AC was on all the way and it was very noisy to my ear.

[metroman]

They run 706-708 for 2 round trips in the morning starting a little after 6am. Then they run them again in the afternoon and evening. Soon they should be running for longer periods.

They have been running good in service, but have developed a propulsion problem while in the yard. Most likely it can be fixed with a software upgrade.

I've been told that 704 & 710 will be the next to cars to go into revenue service. But when is unknown.

I doubt that Breda can get 2 cars/month in revenue service. Next month will mark the 3rd year since the Goldline received its first Breda car. According to a newspaper article on 5/24, the Goldline extension will be ready in Mid 2009, not December as originally planned. So the extension is ahead of schedule, but will Breda be ready?

[Transit Coalition]

May 29, 2008 14:37:14 GMT -8 metroman said:

They run 706-708 for 2 round trips in the morning starting a little after 6am. Then they run them again in the afternoon and evening. Soon they should be running for longer periods.

They have been running good in service, but have developed a propulsion problem while in the yard. Most likely it can be fixed with a software upgrade.

I've been told that 704 & 710 will be the next to cars to go into revenue service. But when is unknown.

I doubt that Breda can get 2 cars/month in revenue service. Next month will mark the 3rd year since the Goldline received its first Breda car. According to a newspaper article on 5/24, the Goldline extension will be ready in Mid 2009, not December as originally planned. So the extension is ahead of schedule, but will Breda be ready?

Metro plans to enter two cars per month into service starting in July. At that rate, 24 cars will be ready within 12 months, well over the number required to run the service. The East LA Gold Line will enter pre-revenue service testing in March, with the budgeted opening in July. Metro will begin operating through and complete service by April, so there will have to be enough train sets. (Riders will exit the train at Union Station and the rest of the line to ELA will be non-revenue).

BTW: The ELA Gold Line has long been on schedule to open in July 2009. as reported to the Metro Board Construction Committee for the last 3 years. I don't know where the newspaper article came up with the December 2009 deadline. Maybe that was something told to the Federal Government, when Metro got the Full Funding Agreement Grant.

[bluelineshawn]

Two cars per month would be 24 cars except that they have not yet met any of their anticipated dates for cars entering service. The current two cars have already been testing for several months. I hope that it works out, but as they say I'll believe it when I see it.

And two cars per month is already a dubious target. I have no idea how they came up with that timeline. Especially considering that many of these cars have been on property for years. Originally wasn't it 1,000 miles without failure according to an earlier post? That's less than 30 round trips. That can easily be done in a week.

[bluelineshawn]

According to the attachment to this months operations meeting agenda the first two cars were recently accepted. The bad news is that the new estimated timeframe for completion of the 50 car order is now December 2010!

That means that they won't all be ready when the gold line opens and assuming that there is no delay in construction they will also not be ready when Expo opens. Unbelievable!

Edit: I guess this still jibes with Bart's latest information. It would take a couple of years at 2 cars per month to get all 50 cars in. I still can't figure out why it would take so long, but it is what it is I guess.

[Elson]

Hey all - Long time no see!

I'm proud to say that I've gotten a new job in Pasadena, and the kicker is - it's located right across the street from the Sierra Madre Villa station! Which means....drum roll please...I'm a Daily Metro Rail Commuter Now!

I started the job last week and was pleased as punch that my ride home every day was the Breda train, as it leaves SMV a little before 5 pm every day.

But last Friday, I stood on the platform after work...waiting...

...and waiting...

...and waiting. It had been over half an hour since the last train had left the station! I was concerned there might have been an unfortunate meeting of train and car somewhere down Marmion Way or something. So I rang up the station emergency call box and asked if there was an accident along the line. The Metro dispatcher on the other end said, "We've had a breakdown...there will be another train coming in about a minute." After the call ended, I looked west and saw a regular Siemens train already approaching SMV.

On the way back, while en route to Highland Park from Mission, there it was -- 706 and 708 sitting on the service siding!

Since that day I haven't seen the Breda train once on the tracks. So something must have gone wrong unfortunately.

I will say that the cars, like many have echoed, are nice yet narrow.
Aside from that, they're nearly identical to the Siemens cars.
I seem to like the electronic beep that sounds right before the operator announces the closing doors. The high-pitched door closing warning sound though is waaaay too quiet, you can barely hear it.

Just for kicks, I'd like to see a 3-car light rail train on the rails consisting of a Nippon-Sharyo P865 coupled to a Siemens P2000 and a Breda P2550!

[bluelineshawn]

That sucks to hear. Those cars were just accepted so they're our problem now. This is getting ugly. According to the operations memo we need all 50 of those cars in service when Expo opens to provide the anticipated service.

[bluelineshawn]

Jun 13, 2008 19:23:47 GMT -8 Elson said:

Just for kicks, I'd like to see a 3-car light rail train on the rails consisting of a Nippon-Sharyo P865 coupled to a Siemens P2000 and a Breda P2550!

LOL! I don't know that we'll ever see that, BUT if they follow through with the current plans you will at least be able to see each of those trains on the blue line in just a few years. The blue line will not only be the only line that operates more than one model in regular service it will operate ALL FOUR models in regular service!

[metroman]

Jun 13, 2008 20:59:05 GMT -8 bluelineshawn said:

Jun 13, 2008 19:23:47 GMT -8 Elson said:

Just for kicks, I'd like to see a 3-car light rail train on the rails consisting of a Nippon-Sharyo P865 coupled to a Siemens P2000 and a Breda P2550!

LOL! I don't know that we'll ever see that, BUT if they follow through with the current plans you will at least be able to see each of those trains on the blue line in just a few years. The blue line will not only be the only line that operates more than one model in regular service it will operate ALL FOUR models in regular service!

Bluelineshawn,

They have the P865, P2000, P2550. What's the 4th model?

Nice photos, btw

[metroman]

May 29, 2008 17:06:31 GMT -8 Transit Coalition said:

Metro plans to enter two cars per month into service starting in July. At that rate, 24 cars will be ready within 12 months, well over the number required to run the service. The East LA Gold Line will enter pre-revenue service testing in March, with the budgeted opening in July. Metro will begin operating through and complete service by April, so there will have to be enough train sets. (Riders will exit the train at Union Station and the rest of the line to ELA will be non-revenue).

BTW: The ELA Gold Line has long been on schedule to open in July 2009. as reported to the Metro Board Construction Committee for the last 3 years. I don't know where the newspaper article came up with the December 2009 deadline. Maybe that was something told to the Federal Government, when Metro got the Full Funding Agreement Grant.

According to Metro's site, late 2009 was the intended opening:

www.metro.net/projects_studies/eastside/default.htm

To me, late 2009 does not mean July.

Hmmm...its been 3 yrs since the first P2550 was delivered to the Goldline, and yet only 2 cars (706 & 708) are ready for revenue service (and part-time, at that). Seems hard to believe they can get 24 cars in 12 months.

[bluelineshawn]

The 4th model is the P2020 which already runs on the blue line along with the P865's.

Nice photos, btw

Thanks.

[Elson]

Update: Breda train spotted on 6:47 a.m. L.A.-bound train arriving 7:10 a.m. at Lincoln/Cypress. Went too fast for me to trainspot it (was going opposite direction). But we do have the Breda trains back on the rails.

[bluelineshawn]

That's good news, however there really should be two sets of Breda's running now - one in service and one testing. I'd be interested to know which it is if you can see the car numbers.

[Elson]

Jun 16, 2008 18:25:52 GMT -8 bluelineshawn said:

That's good news, however there really should be two sets of Breda's running now - one in service and one testing. I'd be interested to know which it is if you can see the car numbers.

I rode the 4:44 p.m. Breda train at Sierra Madre Villa towards home after work. It was 706/708.

Breda train spotted this morning in Figueroa St. tunnel north of Heritage Square/Arroyo. I assume 706/708.

I also see four pairs of Bredas sitting in the Gold Line Yard as my train crosses the L.A. River.

[Elson]

Jun 14, 2008 21:56:17 GMT -8 bluelineshawn said:

The 4th model is the P2020 which already runs on the blue line along with the P865's.

Nice photos, btw

Thanks.

but Aren't the P2020s aesthetically identical to the P865s?

[bluelineshawn]

Yeah, they're basically the same. I think the P2020's may have fewer access boxes (ie more leg room) under the seats, but I'm not too sure about that.

[Elson]

No, really, literally.

Tuesday I got off of work at 4:30 p.m. and 706/708 rolled into SMV like my personal limo or something.

So I got in and got a seat on the left side, in the last row of the forward-facing seats. There were only 2-3 other people in the car, and though the doors are open, the air conditioner was shut off.

After sitting in my seat, contemplating about the rest of the day, the operator turns on the A/C and...

SPLASH!!!

Large drops of water land on my shirt and on my backpack!

WTF?!?!

I got to talk to the Metro testing crews and informed them that I got soaked by the A/C vents. He inspected it and found droplets hanging from the large vent above the aisle and the thin vent in the ceiling that runs the length of the car. I also point to him small puddles on the floor:


Water droplets on the ceiling.


Water droplets on the A/C vent.


MY backpack got "rained" on.


"Must be condensation," he said, while inspecting it further. He asks his partner if there's a rag they can wipe it down with. No rags in the car.

The train starts moving and I notice something doesn't smell right. It's the smell of burning plastic. There's no smoke, but the testing crewmen definitely notice it. Eventually by the time we pass Allen, the smell is gone.


I got out of work 30 minutes late today (Wednesday), but wouldjaknow it, 706/708 was sitting partly in the tail tracks, and by the time I was making my way down the stairs, it pulled forward.

En route to Union Station, No water, no burning smell, but the damn train crawled slowly, had to dover to the outbound track between Lake and Del Mar. Since the Memorial Park and Del Mar stations have split-side platforms, there were lots of irate riders. One woman
flipped off the operator as he started to pull away. He announced on the PA that the next train would follow in three minutes.

The embattled Breda Train ground to a sudden halt right before Mission, and also made unusual pauses along Marmion Way. What was supposed to be a 35-minute ride to Union Station took about 50 minutes. We were greeted by a platform full of pissed-off folks, as a trainful of equally pissed-off folks (many of them missing their Metrolink connection) got off.

There was no joy in Bredaville today.

[Elson]

Guess what, I rode 706 home from work today, and as one of the Metro testing techs wiped off the A/C duct water droplets from the ceiling, I asked him what was the cause.

He said that "it's so hot, and the A/C is running at full blast." That didn't really answer my question but I think he was trying to tell me that it's condensation.

Then I asked him about the testing process and asked him if he tested the Siemens P2000 cars when they first came out. He told me he did, and I asked him, "So, in your opinion, what's the main difference between the two cars?"

"They're [The Bredas are] more high-tech...more computerized," he replied. That made soooo much sense, seeing that there were possibly a ton of hardware- and software- related bugs that have caused problems on these cars. He also said that they're rated for faster speeds, rated to go up to 70mph rather than 55.

He also told me that in addition to 706/708, that cars 710/711 are also being tested on the Gold Line, but only late at night after service hours. Eventually they will be introduced into regular service "when they're ready."

He also told me that cars 704/705 are currently being tested ON THE GREEN LINE, and is based out of the Hawthorne Yard, but only runs on a few specific days and specific times. He also said another pair of cars are coming in the next two weeks and that eventually the Blue Line will have a Breda set tested on its tracks. Might we see faster speeds on the Blue Line (our longest light rail line) then?

[snuffy]

>710/711
saw them @ Union Station on Sunday.

[bluelineshawn]

Thanks for the updates.

I seem to recall condensation leaking from P865 AC units before although not to that extent. But Pasadena is a little hotter than most of the blue line route and the AC is more powerful so I'm not that surprised. Still it would be nice to be able to sit without being drenched so I hope that they make some progress with that issue.

Also, I noticed a few months ago that the green line trains can now travel in excess of 55 mph. I was driving next to one on the freeway at about 60 or so. Someone else, maybe on another forum, reported that they noticed the same thing.

[hooligan]

Jun 24, 2008 8:31:58 GMT -8 bluelineshawn said:

Also, I noticed a few months ago that the green line trains can now travel in excess of 55 mph. I was driving next to one on the freeway at about 60 or so. Someone else, maybe on another forum, reported that they noticed the same thing.

Yes they do I ride that line everyday to and from Lakewood to the 110 freeway station. if noticed the increase in speed.its great it only takes ten minutes. it sometimes it feels even faster, but thats when the train is somewhat empty.

[Elson]

Update! 706 - the one with the leaky a/c vents - is now out of service. 708 is now paired with 710 on regular Gold Line runs...

[wad]

I got to ride the Bredas in service on the evening of Thursday, June 26.

Eh.

I was riding in car 708, and I sat in a seat next to one covered by a paper towel. Looks like this one has a leaky air conditioner as well. Also, right near the AC vent were pieces of duct tape on the ceiling panels.

Already?!?

At best, the Breda is an unimpressive rail car. It's not any nicer on the inside than other cars. However, the solid walls covering the operator's cabin suck. Now the great view through the front is gone, save for a small window on the cabin door. The HVAC units seem to be nightmares. Not only do they leak, they are unpleasantly noisy. They are louder than the brief chirp the train makes before the doors close.

At worst, it shows Metro does a poor job of procuring capital for rail services. We now have three different models of light rail vehicle. Just like with Siemens, Metro now has to take very late delivery of these vehicles. Their breaking-in is also taking a long time.

Then again, Breda is not known for being the best transit vehicle manufacturer. Its stock for San Francisco, Boston and Seattle (dual-mode electric trolleybuses) is recognized as shoddy.

[Elson]

Jun 27, 2008 3:41:10 GMT -8 wad said:

At worst, it shows Metro does a poor job of procuring capital for rail services. We now have three different models of light rail vehicle.

If it's any consolation, so does San Diego Trolley. and though they're all Siemens models, one more advanced than the other, the newer ones had their share of incompatibility problems too.

[bobdavis]

Maybe we should go back to windows that open, Westinghouse air brakes and GE type "M" or "PC" control systems. They usually worked right from day one! (and some are still running today!)
Ride comments: Yesterday's MTA board meeting was something of an anticlimax (or as one of my musician friends would say, a "Big Big Yeah"), but at least I got my first Breda ride in 708, with 710 trailing. It seemed to ride smoothly, and it did not have that raucous beep-alert when the doors closed.

[Tony Fernandez]

I haven't ridden one of these new cars, but does it have the same rocking annoyance that the Siemens cars have on the Gold Line?

[wad]

Jun 27, 2008 14:33:44 GMT -8 Tony Fernandez said:

I haven't ridden one of these new cars, but does it have the same rocking annoyance that the Siemens cars have on the Gold Line?

I thought the Bredas were much smoother, one of the few pluses of the train.

I really cannot stand the loud HVAC, though.

The Breda was a dream compared to riding the Torrance Transit Gillig Phantoms I took on Friday.

[wad]

Jun 27, 2008 7:00:34 GMT -8 Elson said:

If it's any consolation, so does San Diego Trolley. and though they're all Siemens models, one more advanced than the other, the newer ones had their share of incompatibility problems too.

San Diego, who started the light rail revolution, apparently doesn't get the concept of keeping it real.

It does nothing anymore to stick to its core concept.

The low-floor cars were ridiculous, mostly because the rest of the system has to be upgraded before they can run outside of the Green Line. Now, just to run the cars in service, all passengers are forced to transfer at Old Town. It's a really cool transit center, but it's San Diego's equivalent of Crackton (not in the sense that it's dodgy, but because this is where transfers are unnecessarily forced).

By the way, San Diego also has the TAP system. It has the same TVMs and card-reader pylons as L.A. It was all built by hometown contractor Cubic, too. San Diego does not need fare gates.

[JerardWright]

Here are my Breda Gold Line notes from Friday:

I was on Car 710

* Acceleration and sudden braking much smoother. The 20mph section through Highland Park felt faster and smoother.
* A/C too loud. (The Red/Purple Line trains seem to have the same problem) It might have to do with the venting of the system coupled with the insulation of the trains. When the A/C is turned off the trains are whisper quiet and do a good job of insulating outside noise.
* Interior Layout of cars are well thought out plenty of standee room by all doors.