Santa Ana-Garden Grove light rail, in 5 years?

[wrcousert]

The proposed railcar system would create a five-mile transportation corridor that would connect the Metrolink SARTC with Garden Grove. A number of routes are under consideration, but the system will likely run through the downtown and Civic Center areas, then head northwest past the Willowick property, where a new soccer complex is being proposed.

Does anyone know more about this? Could it really happen in the next five years?

[joequality]

That's part of the Santa Ana row, right? Perhaps a tie in with whatever Metro decides to do with it....

[bobdavis]

Five years? After the CenterLine crash-and-burn, I would put any OCTA light rail project in the "I should live so long" category. But, as jazzman "Fats" Waller once said, "One never knows, do one?"

[Philip]

The Santa Ana ROW is part of Measure R, but I have a feeling it's going to be low on the priority list; I think we'll see Expo Phase II, Crenshaw, and the Downtown Connector before this kicks into high gear. Then again, with enough people demanding it, who knows?

What would be ideal is for the line to run all the way down the original Pacific Electric ROW and connect to the Santa Ana Metrolink, with an extension built to Disneyland along the route.

[nickv]

The Santa Ana ROW is part of Measure R, but I have a feeling it's going to be low on the priority list; I think we'll see Expo Phase II, Crenshaw, and the Downtown Connector before this kicks into high gear. Then again, with enough people demanding it, who knows?

I suggest contacting TTC's Executive Director Bart Reed. Any questions about Meausre R projects can be brought to his attention and can be investigated. TTC gets its data and facts directly from the General Manager of Metro Rail, the Chief Capital Management Officer, the head of East L.A. Construction, the Chief Rail Scheduler and the Authority CEO and assistant CEO.

[kenalpern]

This has a long story of its own, which Bart can tell at greater length. In short, it's a shame this wasn't pursued before...but the MagLev folks wanted to have first shot at it...

[rwsconsulting]

Hi All,

My Name is Robert Simpson, I'm a Real Estate Broker, General contractor and a first time user. I ran into the Orange County Transportation issue while performing due diligence on a location for a minor league baseball stadium.

Two sites of interest are Willowick Golf course (In the "development zone" of the S.A. Fixed Guide Way Project) and the Tustin Legacy ( currently being sued over congestion issues brought out in the EIR.)

I found that the Fixed Guide Way project has been submitted by Loretta Sanchez for Federal Stimulus transportation funding ($266 Million). This confuses me as the project is not scheduled to begin construction until 2014 at the earliest. This is far beyond the time frame set for the stimulus package.

How can I recommend this site when it looks like Garden Grove is attempting to run up the price do to a transportation project has a low chance of success.

Please see the attached document for further details and links.

You guys seem to be pretty savvy on these issues and I would appreciate your help in forming a final opinion.

Attachments:

[kenalpern]

Hello, Mr. Simpson. I'd run this by the OCTA Board of Directors. I really don't think that this or any other Orange County light rail line has a snowball's chance in Hades at becoming a reality any time soon, although Metrolink upgrades and grade separations are a realistic goal.

The Centerline, which is a good project that I fought for years ago...is dead.

If Rep. Sanchez is doing what you're describing, I can't figure out why, or which ulterior motives she may or may not have.

Good luck!

[rwsconsulting]

Thank you,

I think you may be correct. But,......

Does the Fixed Guide way have a snowballs chance? It looks like the approval rating on these projects is pretty low. I'm trying to for a lucent opinion to give to my clients.

I have not yet formed an opinion why, or if it is a good idea to apply for federal funds on this project. I am hoping for input on that subject.

Here is the announcement from her website:

www.lorettasanchez.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=478&Itemid=79

Also, do to the physical barriers involved with putting a freeway in the Santa Ana River bed, the chances of successful implementation of the 57 extension project in an earthquake zone with soils conditions that amplify seismic waves and are highly subject to liquefaction is at or very close to ZERRO.

I've been building projects for the last 20 years. If built, it will be a accident waiting to happen.

Why does OCTA spend money on a near physically impossible plan when it could spend its planning funds on preserving its bus lines?

[rwsconsulting]

By the way, I'm sorry if I come off as a bit abrupt. It is not my intent. I am just looking for answers and I do appriciate any and every comment.

Thank You,

Rob

[kenalpern]

You didn't come across that way at all--don't sweat it! Perhaps the uncertainty is mine. Which mode of transportation are the Fixed Guideway projects supposed to be?

[rwsconsulting]

The only options that I have seen are the fixed guide way, (modern street cars) and the no build option.

This is one of my concerns. At least Anaheim is concidering several modes and routes.

[kenalpern]

Forgive my cluelessness, but do you mean BRT, LRT or anything else? I just don't see any major infrastructure projects likely to be built there anytime soon.

Orange County fought hard and lost to create a Centerline, and I envision only Metrolink improvements with respect to mass transit any time soon.

[rwsconsulting]

LRT.

Please see video:

www.ci.santa-ana.ca.us/golocal/default.asp

[kenalpern]

While I personally favor a project like this, and I truly wish the supporters well, this does look like a "Son of Centerline" which doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hades unless there is some major, MAJOR political shifts in Orange County because will be no support for local funding. I'd love to be proven wrong, however.

[jeisenbe]

Update: the Santa Ana Branch Corridor project is now being studied by both Metro and OCTA, according to SCAG:

www.scag.ca.gov/corridor/perow.htm

The "Pacific Electric Right-of-Way/West Santa Ana Branch Corridor" Alternatives Analysis is planned to start soon:

MARCH THROUGH SUMMER 2010 Study Initiation
SUMMER 2010 TO FALL 2010 Alternatives Development and Refinement
FALL 2010 TO SUMMER 2011 Alternatives Evaluation
FALL 2011 Locally Preferred Alternative

The first community meeting is June 15th:

Community Meeting #1
Tuesday, June 15
6:30 – 8:30 pm
Garden Grove Community Meeting Center
11300 Stanford Avenue
Garden Grove, CA 92840

Others along the route from the Green Line to Santa Ana are planned for this June as well; see the page for details.

The modes being considered include light rail, BRT, commuter rail, and "high speed rail" (not sure who would operate this), with possible connection to Union Station or the Blue Line in the north, and Santa Ana Metrolink in the south.

[Philip]

If this becomes a reality, I hope it connects to the future Burbank/Glendale line (from the Burbank Metrolink to Union Station).

That way, we have a complete light-rail alternative to some of the busiest areas of the 5 freeway.

[metrocenter]

This project is funded by Measure R. Supposed to be completed in 2025-27.

[erict]

The Santa Ana Branch section in Los Angeles County is a funded part of Measure R, but not the Orange County branch (unless I am totally confused). I am confused if this mysterious Santa Ana line goes to downtown LA, or just hooks up to the Blue or Green line...

[Justin Walker]

Jun 11, 2010 14:05:04 GMT -8 erict said:

The Santa Ana Branch section in Los Angeles County is a funded part of Measure R, but not the Orange County branch (unless I am totally confused). I am confused if this mysterious Santa Ana line goes to downtown LA, or just hooks up to the Blue or Green line...

The Santa Ana Branch, back when it was a Pacific Electric line, branched from what is now the Metro Blue Line at Watts and ran all the way to Santa Ana. The current SCAG study appears to only be studying the ROW southeast of Garfield Ave. It would be tough, although not impossible, to build anything north of there because the ROW has already been used (for the Century Freeway). How this project will tie in to our existing transit lines is therefore quite a mystery for the time being, but connecting to Green Line seems to be the bare minimum that should be done.

[kenalpern]

This really is a mystery of a line, isn't it? Perhaps if the SCAGLev folks can keep their grubby hands off of it, we can start talking rationally about its true potential.

[jeisenbe]

Looking on satellite imagery, the right-of-way appears to be almost entirely intact and 100 feet wide from the Green Line / 105 south to Santa Ana (the former Pacific Electric cars must have turned east onto city streets after reaching downtown SA).

According to CHSRA's plans for Caltrain and High Speed trains in San Mateo County, a 100 foot right-of-way is plenty wide enough for an earthen-berm grade separation with 4 tracks, overhead cantenary, access roads, and fences and sound walls, and is also wide enough for elevated stations.

How about building a 2-track, grade-separated railway, with room to expand to 4 tracks in the future if needed, and running a mix of local and limited-stop electric (EMU) regional rail service, perhaps run by Metrolink, but using light, modern electric trains capable of 110 mph operation. Limited stop trains would have stations every 2 miles, and local trains could stop every 1 mile, like light rail, but both services would be coordinated to allow cross-platform connections at major stations. Service could start out with limit-stop trains every 30 minutes to 1 hour at first, and local trains every 10 to 20 minutes (weekday vs weekend/evening), but increase if the local cities allowed more development and encouraged transit use.
An elevated railway, built traditionally with earthen berms and overpasses at intersections (which are usually only ever 400 to 800 meters along this route) would be affordable, and could be expanded to 4 tracks if there is ever enough demand to run local trains every 5 minutes, along with additional limited-stop and express trains.

A good version of regional rail service, like what Caltrain wants to do, or what is done all over Germany and other European countries, could provide faster travel on long trips (even faster than Metrolink) while still having many local stations (like light rail); with a right-of-way this wide, it is certainly possible, if the cities along the route want it to happen.

[bobdavis]

Yes, the Santa Ana Line went to street running on the west side of downtown Santa Ana. The PE depot was east of Main St., and, later became (as I recall) a Salvation Army thrift store. I've been told that because 4th St. was relatively narrow, there were signs warning owners of large cars, such as Packards and Cadillacs, not to park in the diagonal parking spots, because the rear ends of their luxury cars could get clipped by passing Red Cars, especially after the "Blimps" went into service.
Regarding the proposal to bring electric railroading back to this route, I've already commented in Trainorders.com that for those of us who remember Pacific Electric days, this is in the "I should live so long!" category.

[spokker]

The old PE corridor is more dense than I thought. I think that if converted to light rail or a busway, the line could really improve transit in North Orange County, especially if they build it to Downtown Santa Ana. People who live in Cerritos (population density: 5,987/sq mi), Stanton (11,988/sq mi), La Palma (8,512.8/sq mi), Garden Grove (9,710/sq mi) could get to work in Santa Ana (13,124/sq mi) very easily. If adapted to local conditions, I think it could be very successful.

[spokker]

The final meetings for the alternatives analysis phase are this week.

www.pacificelectriccorridor.com/community-meetings

[joemagruder]

Why should this line go to Union Station? Wouldn't operating as an extension of the Green Line or, better, the Blue Line be more direct?

[spokker]

The West Bank 3 option is superior as it hits that whole South Gate area, which is denser than people realize. The other three options that literally hug the LA River look very disappointing to me. And Union Station's "throat" is crowded enough as it is. West Bank 3 would allow trains to continue onto the Gold Line in Little Tokyo.

I attended the PE Corridor meeting in Buena Park yesterday and I voiced by support for light rail for this very reason. They asked to rate each mode (opposed, support, etc.) and write a short sentence why.

No-Build: I strongly opposed, because we cannot keep relying on freeways.

TSM: Opposed, because doing more of the same with bus service will not provide the needed capacity in this corridor.

BRT: Support, because it is a relatively low-cost alternative.

Streetcar: Neutral because it will not be compatible with Metro Rail (but would operate on Santa Ana's proposed streetcar line).

Light Rail: Strongly support, because it is compatible with Metro Rail and provides the needed capacity.

Low-speed maglev: Strongly oppose, because it is way too expensive ($7 billion) for only marginal benefits over light rail.

[bluelineshawn]

May 20, 2012 10:22:25 GMT -8 spokker said:

The West Bank 3 option is superior as it hits that whole South Gate area, which is denser than people realize. The other three options that literally hug the LA River look very disappointing to me. And Union Station's "throat" is crowded enough as it is. West Bank 3 would allow trains to continue onto the Gold Line in Little Tokyo.

South Gate? All of the options are the same until Gage Avenue so it's only after South Gate that they diverge.

I think that I also like West Bank 3, but I'll have to think about it some more. But if they go all the way to Little Tokyo, it would only make sense to run one more stop into LAUS using the existing tracks. Little Tokyo would be an odd choice for a terminus.

[spokker]

I meant the South Gate region, not the city of South Gate. I think I meant Gateway Cities region.

I doubt Little Tokyo will ever be a terminus, and that's the beauty of the light rail alternative. Once you hit Little Tokyo, you could go all the way to Azusa if you wanted to. Not that I think many people will be riding light rail between Azusa and Santa Ana, but you could start doing things like Sierra Madre Villa to Huntington Park, La Palma to Chinatown, and many other combinations.

[jdrcrasher]

My only disappointment is that there was no option of briefly running on Olympic instead of the Metrolink ROW. I'm sure most of us have heard of the Wyvernwood redevelopment plan by now... and a renovated Sears Building would sure be nice!

May 20, 2012 17:02:29 GMT -8 spokker said:

I doubt Little Tokyo will ever be a terminus, and that's the beauty of the light rail alternative.

Hold on, here's an idea: Why not run this line to the Regional Connector, and connect to the Yellow Line, which would run on Brand/Glendale Blvd?? That project is also planned to connect with the Regional Connector as well... more specifically, at the Bunker Hill Station.


Yes, yes, I know, three lines on one ROW is pushing it, but that's where a Regional Connector II (via Alameda) could come in... you could reroute the Blue Line onto the RCII and just have the Gold Line and the Yellow line-Santa Ana link share tracks between Bunker hill and Little Tokyo. ;