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Post by rubbertoe on Sept 20, 2011 6:12:38 GMT -8
A few years ago I went to a Chargers game at Qualcomm stadium, travelling by car and suffering through massive traffic delays to get out of the stadium area after the game. I resolved the next time I went to a game there I would take the San Diego Trolley, and indeed I did for the opening game Sunday before last featuring Chargers vs. Vikings. I took a cab from my hotel to the Old Town Transit Center, and got there early because the MTS website warned that trolleys can be full after 11;00 am. Of course I caught a trolley right away, there were plenty of seats, and was at the stadium in about 15 minutes, no stress, and an all-day pass was $5. I wondered what it would be like to make the return trip after the game, and since my seat was on the other side of the stadium from the trolley stop I got in line relatively late. The answer to my question was: the number of people taking the trolley was massive, and I waited in line for about an hour before boarding. The lines were about 10 times worse than Space Mountain at Disneyland on a busy summer day. So I'm not sure taking the trolley saved me much time after the game compared to driving, but it was cheaper and much less stressful. What I'm worried about, though, is if taking the Expo Line to USC games at the Coliseum is as popular, there is going to have to be very well-organized crowd management by Metro, and well-defined queues in Exposition Park because the waiting areas at the USC/Watt Way and Vermont stops are so miniscule. If it isn't handled well, it could be a very bad situation. Dave, I had an identical experience to yours. Given that the Qualcomm station is elevated, I'm not sure what prevents them from staging more trains to deal with the crush crowds at the end of the game. If you assume that they do stage the required trains, then it might be that the number of riders simply overwhelms the rate at which the trains can be pulled in and loaded. If they don't stage enough trains, then you would hope that they would be trying to figure out how to serve the fans better. And yes, Expo will be interesting to watch during USC home games. It would be interesting to set up a video camera and take an hours worth of video both before and after the games at the close by stations to see how Metro handles operations and the train frequency. RT
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 20, 2011 6:26:12 GMT -8
The Expo Line itself is a HUGE event line.
Pico station - Nokia Theater/Staples Center/Farmers Field Jefferson/USC - Galen Center/The Shrine USC/Expo Park - LA Memorial Coliseum
If you noticed with the current rail lines, Metro has now improved frequencies for large scale events. As long as headways are fast (i.e. no greater than 6 minute wait times), then the station waiting shouldn't be bad.
I don't know the situation at PetCo field with the Trolley, but it's a Trolley and not Light Rail. Also, what were the frequencies after the game? Our Gold Line travels with 12 minute frequencies on weekends outside of the early morning and late evening hours. So, until we start comparing and scaring people they'll be waiting 1 hour until a train comes, let's wait and see. Of course, this doesn't happen currently at 7th street/Pico station for Staples Center...and Metro has increased frequency for Rose Bowl events.
And, like I said before, what's more important is the frequency AFTER the game, not BEFORE. Before a game, people generally come within 0 - 3 hours (if they want to grab dinner/drinks before game or tailgate with other fans). It's the AFTER game service that's critical as people look to leave within 30 minutes. So any additional service we are talking for Pico station needs REALLY GOOD headways after the game ends to 1 hour thereafter. Then you've cleared a good chunk of the visitors. Hardly many people stay over an hour after the game (unless a championship has just been won...but that's extreme situations).
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Post by rubbertoe on Sept 20, 2011 6:43:28 GMT -8
I don't know the situation at PetCo field with the Trolley, but it's a Trolley and not Light Rail. LA, Petco field and Qualcomm are both served by the San Diego Trolley. But don't let the name confuse you, the trolley is actually a full light rail system. Equivalent in capacity to the Blue Line running 3 car trains. So, from a capacity standpoint, we are comparing apples to apples when trying to see how the systems can deal with post-game ridership. RT
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Post by bzcat on Sept 20, 2011 9:35:23 GMT -8
Because you know what? Saying the opening should be delayed from November to March because "some football fans might be confused" is the very height of idiocy. Exactly! The entire concept that we should delay opening of a rail line so people don't get confused is about as absurd as crying foul over tunneling 100ft under some high school. If Expo is done with pre-revenue testing by November, there is NO reason to wait until January or March to start revenue service.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 20, 2011 10:17:13 GMT -8
Official prerevenue lasts for only 5 weeks, not any longer. Official prerevenue only starts when they are ready to announce the opening day or when they announce the opening day. So, basically, announcement of the opening day and start of the official prerevenue will be practically concurrent. I don't think they can start it next week. They still have quite a bit systems testing to do. In particular, they haven't been running any multiple, simultaneous three-car trains yet. They won't start the official prerevenue, which is running three-car trains at regular schedule, before that. So, unless they announce the opening and/or start of the official prerevenue, the official prerevenue won't start for at least another week, as the announcement is usually made in advance. The Eastside Gold Line official prerevenue was announced five days in advance.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 20, 2011 12:10:16 GMT -8
Today they were running a three-car test train. There were at least 50 or more Metro staff in the train involved in the testing. It looks like this will be a very lengthy process before the prerevenue can start.
I was frustrated to read the train-speed-limit signs on Flower. It's only 20 MPH south of 23rd St Station through past Adams and it's only 25 MPH further south of Adams from there. It only becomes 35 MPH south of 30th. When the train is going 20 MPH and the cars are zooming by 40 MPH, it really frustrates the passengers and hurts the ridership.
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Post by darrell on Sept 20, 2011 13:32:46 GMT -8
Two testing photos from yesterday afternoon: The no-left-turn LED signs were bright at 7th. After I stopped the gates went up, and I almost missed the signs being on. No train passed. But there was this westbound 3-car train stopped at Crenshaw. I was hopeful when the signal turned green, but there was no operator in the cab and the train didn't move. I also saw one car parked at USC, but no others.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 20, 2011 13:44:13 GMT -8
Two testing photos from yesterday afternoon: Need testing videos, not photos! That's because that train was going in the other direction. The operator was in the opposite cab. Today they are testing a three-car train. I'm not sure why they were using the wrong track. The train was also stopped next to a Metro hi-rail vehicle with a crane (on the asphalt) for some reason. Testing is very expensive. As I mentioned earlier, there were at least about 50 Metro staff in the train. Perhaps this is one reason why they may open the line in November. Longer they test, more they spend. I think the testing is costing them around $1,000,000 a month. Imagine all those wages and overtime.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 20, 2011 14:36:01 GMT -8
Enjoy the three-car train!
First it pulls in the wrong track toward Halldale Avenue. For some reason, it took it forever to go across the intersection, perhaps it was on the wrong track, and someone had to get out and stop the traffic. Then it pulls to the 23rd St Station in the wrong track.
It looks like today was the wrong-tracking day. Perhaps they are already done with testing in the regular direction, at least for single trains?
So, is the next step multitrain testing? It looks like testing is moving forward fast, as they test all imaginable situations and configurations.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Sept 20, 2011 21:20:08 GMT -8
Official prerevenue lasts for only 5 weeks, not any longer. Official prerevenue only starts when they are ready to announce the opening day or when they announce the opening day. So, basically, announcement of the opening day and start of the official prerevenue will be practically concurrent. How do you figure? Testing is just what the name implies and if there are any issues then testing most certainly can last more than 5 weeks. Didn't we just see this 2 years ago when the gold line east la extension was tested? They were already doing the simulated service with the trains opening doors at each station, etc. when they ran into two separate issues* that delayed opening by several months. They already had the safety ambassadors out. * Electrical shorts on the street running portions and tunnel ventilation issues.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 20, 2011 21:48:47 GMT -8
Official prerevenue lasts for only 5 weeks, not any longer. Official prerevenue only starts when they are ready to announce the opening day or when they announce the opening day. So, basically, announcement of the opening day and start of the official prerevenue will be practically concurrent. How do you figure? Testing is just what the name implies and if there are any issues then testing most certainly can last more than 5 weeks. Didn't we just see this 2 years ago when the gold line east la extension was tested? They were already doing the simulated service with the trains opening doors at each station, etc. when they ran into two separate issues* that delayed opening by several months. They already had the safety ambassadors out. * Electrical shorts on the street running portions and tunnel ventilation issues. Those problems were during the early stages of the testing, primarily during the first phase, which is the contractor's testing. Expo is in testing phase 2 now, which is the system-integration testing by Metro. Phase 3 and the last is the prerevenue operation. Gold Line Eastside extension:Prerevenue operation began: October 4, 2009. Revenue operation began: November 15, 2009. So, in that case, it was exactly 6 weeks between the start of the prerevenue operation and the opening, one week longer than the 5 week I stated. They don't announce and start the prerevenue operation until all the problems are completely solved and they have a certain opening date.
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Post by simonla on Sept 21, 2011 7:51:57 GMT -8
Here's a question--if we actually manage to get this train open this year, to La Cienega, what will be done about the maps? How will passengers know that Culver City is not yet reachable? Stickers over the CC station?
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 21, 2011 8:09:43 GMT -8
We were out at the La Cienega station last night. Really beautiful to see it all lit up! It seems ready for business ...except for maps. None of the maps are in place yet.
We were surprised to see that the stairs to the platform are unblocked, almost as if Metro is inviting inspection of the facility.
The parking facility next door is almost finished. Lines to separate parking spaces for the cars are yet to be drawn. But I can really imagine the whole show coming together in just a few weeks.
When my wife and I were first going out, nine years ago, I must have had a screw loose, but took her on a driving tour of the Expo ROW. That should have killed the relationship! ...But it didn't. Seeing the La Cienega station in all of its glory, where once there was only vacant "set-aside" land on each side of La Cienega, and to see the ROW now ready for trains is really very moving (no pun intended). Can't wait for the opening.
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Post by bzcat on Sept 21, 2011 10:14:10 GMT -8
Here's a question--if we actually manage to get this train open this year, to La Cienega, what will be done about the maps? How will passengers know that Culver City is not yet reachable? Stickers over the CC station? Seems like you just solved the problem. I don't think map is an issue at all. And on board announcement (re: terminals) can be changed with a new recording relatively easy and cheap.
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 21, 2011 10:21:53 GMT -8
...Besides, the stations are really within easy walking distance of each other. Heck, there's even a bike path.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 21, 2011 10:31:07 GMT -8
One thing we're forgetting is that the construction is not complete and with the way this contractor delays things, it may not be completed until December. You can't open the line until the construction is finished even if you finish the prerevenue operation. For a mid-November opening, they would have to finish system-integration testing next week and start the prerevenue operation on October 2 (in eleven days from today). Prerevenue operation lasts for about six weeks and you do the math to find out the opening day for a later prerevenue-operation start. Since they won't be opening the line between Thanksgiving and New Year, it's now more than likely that the opening won't be before New Year. It will be up to Metro and how the Culver City Station is progressing to open it to La Cienega or Culver City next year.
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 21, 2011 11:59:49 GMT -8
It's hard for me to estimate the time required to complete construction/system integration when they turn the lights on and tacitly allow station entrance access! I won't hold my breath in anicipation of integ. testing completion, but I'll hope for early October completion!
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 21, 2011 13:29:42 GMT -8
In that lasyt video, at 2:10, the kids are picking up something from the track. Did they flatten pennies?
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 21, 2011 13:49:49 GMT -8
So, is the next step multitrain testing??? ... We have has Some Multitrains in the past Thanks for reposting this nice video. This is contractor's testing (Phase 1) though and the Metro has to repeat all that themselves (Phase 2), including higher speeds and more tests, before they move into prerevenue operation (Phase 3). I like the kid pointing at the moving train at 2:00 and his mother pulling him back -- Don't touch! Then he puts what seems to be a coin on the rail.
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 21, 2011 15:21:03 GMT -8
So, Gokhan, what's the deal about the La Cienega station, that both staircases are wide open? You can go up and stroll on the platforms, ogle the traffic underneath, take pictures, etc.
Usually prior to completion there are barriers, signs, etc. for the public to ignore follow. Here it almost seems to be a welcome sign to "check it out!"
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Post by davebowman on Sept 21, 2011 15:21:30 GMT -8
Re: taking the San Diego Trolley to and from Qualcomm Stadium--it seemed that after the game they were loading the trains as fast as possible, and running them with short headways, so I think it was simply the case of everyone wanting to leave right after the game, as opposed to arriving at more staggered times. That's to be expected, and I was one of the last people in line after the game, but I was just wondering where Expo riders are going to stand and wait for a train after a USC game at the Coliseum, since a lot of people will be wanting to cross at Watt Way to get back onto campus. It would be nice if they could block off Exposition between Figueroa and Vermont for an hour or so after the game.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 21, 2011 16:05:48 GMT -8
So, Gokhan, what's the deal about the La Cienega station, that both staircases are wide open? You can go up and stroll on the platforms, ogle the traffic underneath, take pictures, etc. Usually prior to completion there are barriers, signs, etc. for the public to ignore follow. Here it almost seems to be a welcome sign to " check it out!" La Brea has been open for quite a while now as well. I wouldn't go up there. Security is probably watching and you could find yourself in an awkward situation. Also, it may encourage others to go up there if they see you, which would increase the risk of vandalism to the station. I don't know why they leave them wide open.
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Post by darrell on Sept 21, 2011 21:06:50 GMT -8
On the subject of La Brea - and catching up on old photos - here is a photo from 8/25/11 of the station art there. And a crop of that photo showing the tiled art panel in detail (yes, I sure do like my camera's image quality!).
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 21, 2011 22:59:16 GMT -8
^Great pictures. Station looks amazing at night.
However, the photo of the emergency exit stairs really highlights how high up the station is.
Still blows my mind they aren't using escalators. Should have at LEAST had a single upwards escalator. What is this, 1911?
Look for long lines at the elevator.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 22, 2011 7:18:56 GMT -8
^Great pictures. Station looks amazing at night. However, the photo of the emergency exit stairs really highlights how high up the station is. Still blows my mind they aren't using escalators. Should have at LEAST had a single upwards escalator. What is this, 1911? Look for long lines at the elevator. Actually it's not that high, certainly nothing like subway stairs. These are the east stairs of the La Brea Station: Escalators, especially in open air, would be a maintenance nightmare. Also, there is really no space to put them.
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Post by erict on Sept 22, 2011 7:48:58 GMT -8
I agree about open air escalators, they are a problem. Metro is supposed to be building canopies over most of them, but the money keeps getting deferred to other projects. ^Great pictures. Station looks amazing at night. Escalators, especially in open air, would be a maintenance nightmare. Also, there is really no space to put them.
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Sept 22, 2011 8:19:21 GMT -8
^Great pictures. Station looks amazing at night. However, the photo of the emergency exit stairs really highlights how high up the station is. Still blows my mind they aren't using escalators. Should have at LEAST had a single upwards escalator. What is this, 1911? Look for long lines at the elevator. Here in Montreal, escalators are rare and only on the deepest stations. In almost every station you have to walk at least one flight of stairs and elevators are only a a few stations! There is no ADA in Canada and I'll tell you what, there aren't as many fat people either. Disabled groups have successfully campaigned to add elevators, but it's a long slow process and has just started.
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Post by joshuanickel on Sept 22, 2011 10:24:05 GMT -8
^Great pictures. Station looks amazing at night. However, the photo of the emergency exit stairs really highlights how high up the station is. Still blows my mind they aren't using escalators. Should have at LEAST had a single upwards escalator. What is this, 1911? Look for long lines at the elevator. Actually it's not that high, certainly nothing like subway stairs. These are the east stairs of the La Brea Station: Escalators, especially in open air, would be a maintenance nightmare. Also, there is really no space to put them.Wasn't it mentioned in the environmental report that they were going to leave space for escalators to be added in the future? When looking at this photo from expolinefan, you can see a space next to the staircase where an escalator could be added:
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Post by rajacobs on Sept 22, 2011 23:02:20 GMT -8
Tonight we were walking around Jefferson and National, peering at the old Pacific Rail trestle, underneath the Jefferson Expo bridge. The trestle is now bounded by black metal fence--apparently a permanent installation.
I can't help but wonder what good retaining the trestle serves? I'd welcome having it refurbished--painted or lacquered appropriately and ideally having it function as an historical exhibit with a reburbished Red Car on top of it.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 22, 2011 23:13:49 GMT -8
Tonight we were walking around Jefferson and National, peering at the old Pacific Rail trestle, underneath the Jefferson Expo bridge. The trestle is now bounded by black metal fence--apparently a permanent installation. I can't help but wonder what good retaining the trestle serves? I'd welcome having it refurbished--painted or lacquered appropriately and ideally having it function as an historical exhibit with a reburbished Red Car on top of it. It's meant as a historical display. I hope they put nice signs and storyboards around it. An actual Pacific Electric train would probably be doomed by vandalizers though. They were barely able to save the PE 1299 business car (that can be seen in the historical Expo photos thread) in the Pomona Fairgrounds from vandalism before it was moved to the OERM.
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