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Post by Gokhan on Sept 14, 2011 13:33:13 GMT -8
Expo Line prerevenue operation begins
Expo Line prerevenue operation has now begun! The prerevenue operation usually lasts for two months and then the revenue operation begins. The prerevenue operation simulates the revenue operation and allows the operator (Metro) to optimize the performance and generate the timetable.
The video shows a two-car Siemens train crossing the Buckingham Road gated crossing and then pulling to the Farmdale Station. At Farmdale Station the automatic-train protection (ATP) prevents the train exceeding 15 MPH until the tail of the train clears the crossing. Once the tail of the train clears the crossing, the train suddenly accelerates as the ATP goes off and then heads toward the La Brea Station at full speed.
While the prerevenue operation lasts for about two months and the line could in principle open in mid-November, the completion of the Expo - Blue junction, Farmdale Station construction logistics, and the Culver City Station plans may delay the opening to as late as March 2012.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 14, 2011 14:09:36 GMT -8
Gokhan - is this true? I haven't seen an announcement on Metro's Source. I don't want to get excited on something that hasn't been validated by the transit authority.
Also, with this pre-revenue operation in place (if it is); don't they at a minimum need the Blue Line-Expo Line junction working so that they can simulate real service in/out of 7th street/Metro Center and Pico stations by mixing the Blue and Expo trains?
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 14, 2011 14:35:38 GMT -8
Gokhan - is this true? I haven't seen an announcement on Metro's Source. I don't want to get excited on something that hasn't been validated by the transit authority. Also, with this pre-revenue operation in place (if it is); don't they at a minimum need the Blue Line-Expo Line junction working so that they can simulate real service in/out of 7th street/Metro Center and Pico stations by mixing the Blue and Expo trains? Well, prerevenue operation is nothing but the trains running like regular trains except without the passengers and this is exactly what it is -- trains having normal dwell times at the station platforms, Farmdale ATP in action, speed limits observed, etc. This is not to say that they are running at full speed yet -- it might take them a while to get there. Also, as time goes on, prevenue operation will include multiple trains at the same time. They told at the last board meeting that the Expo - Blue junction will not be included in the prerevenue operation until it's finished and the prerevenue operation will initially take place between 23rd and La Cienega. So, for the next few weeks at least, the prerevenue operation will only take place from the 23rd St Station to the La Cienega Station. They also said at the last board meeting that the prerevenue operation would begin in mid-September -- so, they are right on schedule! Testing can be done in segments and that's what they're doing now so that they can open the line as soon as possible. Rather than waiting for the Expo - Blue junction, they can optimize and time the 23rd - La Cienega segment now, and once the junction is ready, they can finish testing of that very short and simple segment quickly and open the line. It's the same idea with the Culver City Station. Once it's finished, it will be tested quickly and added to the rest of the line.
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Post by bzcat on Sept 14, 2011 16:49:20 GMT -8
This is so exciting
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 14, 2011 21:53:53 GMT -8
Gokhan, in your video, the road appears to be an odd mix of asphalt and concrete. is that the final state?
And the bike lanes disappear at 1:45. Why is that?
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 14, 2011 22:02:56 GMT -8
Gokhan, in your video, the road appears to be an odd mix of asphalt and concrete. is that the final state? And the bike lanes disappear at 1:45. Why is that? Impressive viewing! Yes, it's all final. Expo only repaved the sections they claimed they damaged and refused to repave the sections they claimed they didn't damage. Sometimes it's only a-foot-wide by the tracks, sometimes it goes to the centerline of the street from the tracks, and sometimes it's full width of the street. Unfortunately there is no bike crossing at La Brea; so, the bicycles need to get on Jefferson at Harcourt Ave or so and then continue on the new bike lanes on Jefferson.
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Post by James Fujita on Sept 15, 2011 0:44:00 GMT -8
ExpoLineFan's photos are quite nice If you look really up close on some of those photos, the signs on top of the ticket machines say "Buy TAP card" "Buy Ticket/Passes" "Reload TAP" "Add Value" I hope it's like that all the way across the Expo Line. That's great news for TAP if you really can do all that. I suppose it makes sense, why wait to convert brand new machines?
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2011 13:15:45 GMT -8
Great video chasing that train!
Metro is not calling this prerevenue operation. They want to reserve that technical term for the operation exactly one month before the opening, where the trains run at mostly full speed and mostly at regular schedule with regular headways.
But the pretense of USC football season is probably indicating that they want to open the line to Culver City, not La Cienega, and this would probably put the opening in January or February, if not March.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 15, 2011 13:36:33 GMT -8
Great video chasing that train! Metro is not calling this prerevenue operation. They want to reserve that technical term for the operation exactly one month before the opening, where the trains run at mostly full speed and mostly at regular schedule with regular headways. But the pretense of USC football season is probably indicating that they want to open the line to Culver City, not La Cienega, and this would probably put the opening in January or February, if not March. Hence the reason I didn't want to go around and call this "pre-revenue operation" either. Gokhan, you are truly the most excited person on this board and I applaud your efforts. But if people start hearing "prerevenue operation" has begun; it's misleading as there is no simulation running of trains; this is still testing. People will then accuse Metro of holding up the train for opening. Let's wait until Metro's own Source tell us if they are/are not starting prerevenue work. Currently, this is still testing in my opinion.
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Post by carter on Sept 15, 2011 14:35:23 GMT -8
Great video chasing that train! Metro is not calling this prerevenue operation. They want to reserve that technical term for the operation exactly one month before the opening, where the trains run at mostly full speed and mostly at regular schedule with regular headways. But the pretense of USC football season is probably indicating that they want to open the line to Culver City, not La Cienega, and this would probably put the opening in January or February, if not March. Hence the reason I didn't want to go around and call this "pre-revenue operation" either. Gokhan, you are truly the most excited person on this board and I applaud your efforts. But if people start hearing "prerevenue operation" has begun; it's misleading as there is no simulation running of trains; this is still testing. People will then accuse Metro of holding up the train for opening. Let's wait until Metro's own Source tell us if they are/are not starting prerevenue work. Currently, this is still testing in my opinion. Consider this the official word that pre-revenue testing has NOT begun: twitter.com/#!/ExpoLine/status/114466025361260544 @expoline: To clarify--We are still testing & pre-revenue operation has not started
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 15, 2011 14:39:40 GMT -8
Well last week Metro Revenue Dept was saying out on the Line. That the ticket machines were coming, they now are being installed and Revenue Dept also made comment that after the ticket machines were all installed we would be just a few weeks from opening I Just Posted this note above to Expo Line facebook Page My Problem is that Metro & Expo need the Info to Match witch it is not doing right now may be we need to get them to the Same table I would trust Metro's The Source to be your official word and also the FB/Twitter page; as those are maintained by a consultant who works directly with Metro. Even from the FB page: "We're glad to hear that everyone is excited about train testing! But to clarify -- We are still testing and pre-revenue operation has not yet started. "
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2011 14:48:43 GMT -8
Great video chasing that train! Metro is not calling this prerevenue operation. They want to reserve that technical term for the operation exactly one month before the opening, where the trains run at mostly full speed and mostly at regular schedule with regular headways. But the pretense of USC football season is probably indicating that they want to open the line to Culver City, not La Cienega, and this would probably put the opening in January or February, if not March. Hence the reason I didn't want to go around and call this "pre-revenue operation" either. Gokhan, you are truly the most excited person on this board and I applaud your efforts. But if people start hearing "prerevenue operation" has begun; it's misleading as there is no simulation running of trains; this is still testing. People will then accuse Metro of holding up the train for opening. Let's wait until Metro's own Source tell us if they are/are not starting prerevenue work. Currently, this is still testing in my opinion. Nobody is going to blame nobody on anything. This is just a discussion board. So, lighten up, everyone! What you should know is that the testing of the Expo Line is not being done in a conventional way. Normally, first the contractor do their tests and then hands the project over to Metro at substantial completion. The tests are mostly static and dynamic local tests and the trains aren't run in full action. After substantial completion, Metro starts the system-integration testing, which is basically repeating contractor's tests and then also testing how the system connects to the existing system. Then comes prerevenue, which is full testing and simulation, including as many trains as possible in various situations. With the Expo Line, they put the contractor's testing and the system-integration testing (Metro testing) together. In fact, I believe the contractor has mostly finished their testing and the system-integration testing is also mostly finished as well. (Of course, the Expo - Blue junction isn't finished yet.) The testing that is taking place right now is a transition or a hybrid between system-integration testing and prerevenue, where they actually run trains in full action and in all possible situations, including multiple trains nearby at full speed. I think what's going to happen is that they will do this quasi prevenue operation for the next three months and will wait for the Culver City tracks and OCS to be ready and operating and the Expo - Blue junction to be ready. Once the Expo - Blue junction and Culver City Station are done and ready, they will make a public announcement probably in late December or early January that they are beginning the official prerevenue and then open the line four weeks later, in January or February. So, this is my guess. But, who knows, perhaps they will open it to La Cienega in November or December. Equally likely is that they have no idea what they want to do, as there are so many variables and unknowns. Here is a good read on testing and start-up phase from the FTA Web site, which explains the testing activities, including prerevenue operation. Enjoy! FTA guidelines for the testing and start-up phase
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 15, 2011 16:17:52 GMT -8
You can also listen to the part of this month's board meeting from 01:45 to 06:15 min:sec, where they discuss the train testing in response to Mr. Clint Simmons's concerns over train noise. They talk about handing over the section between 23rd and La Cienega to Metro (which has now taken place) for them to run their operators while they finish the Expo - Blue junction within next month and they draw a strong distinction from previous testing activities, saying they were only minor static and dynamic tests, and now the trains will run at full speed. Expo board meeting minutes 2011/09/01(Listen from 01:45 to 06:15 min:sec for discussion over Mr. Clint Simmons's concerns over noise during train testing)
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Sept 16, 2011 6:36:09 GMT -8
Why keep it private? It proves Clint Simons is just a bored senior with a hobby of going to transit board meetings. He's nice enough in person, but it shows his complaints have absolutely no merit.
Before the wall was installed I guarantee the traffic noise from Exposition Boulevard was louder than the trains will ever be.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 16, 2011 16:29:09 GMT -8
Good news! They are testing the Expo - Blue junction every night next week. Perhaps it's almost completed now.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 16, 2011 19:36:43 GMT -8
We rarely post night pictures. These are taken this evening: Vermont Station: La Brea Station: La Cienega Station: Almost time for you to get on that train.
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Post by darrell on Sept 16, 2011 20:07:38 GMT -8
I have no before construction photos but the area LOOKS NICE TO ME I agree! Per the before, unfortunately the closest I have is this one from the north side when right-of-way clearing was underway on 2/28/08: If I recall, it was an ivy-covered chain link fence with some old trees that separated the neighborhood from the railroad right-of-way.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 17, 2011 0:00:25 GMT -8
Here's a tweet from @plusmetro
"#MetroLosAngeles @expoline public opening date gets pushed back to March 2012."
Thoughts?
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 17, 2011 0:42:21 GMT -8
That comment by outsiders has no reference whatsoever. One thing I found out is that Expo, Metro, and LADOT apparently did actually have an agreement for not to open the line before November 27th (until after the UCLA game). Apparently they don't want to open the line after the football season starts (which already took place) because game-goers would think the line still doesn't operate because it wasn't operating during the previous game. So, it's very unlikely that the line will open before November 27 in any case. Since the Culver City Station is now almost complete, and the testing that needs to be done there is minimal, they might just say that, "Hey, what are we doing? Why have two openings in two months? Let's wait another two months and open the line as a whole in February." Of course, this will be up to MTA. They've messed up so much with this line and one final big mess-up with the press giving headlines "Another MTA rail line to nowhere!" could be the worst mess-up they can avoid. For that reason I wouldn't be surprised with an initial opening to Culver City in February.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Sept 17, 2011 11:37:16 GMT -8
That comment by outsiders has no reference whatsoever. One thing I found out is that Expo, Metro, and LADOT apparently did actually have an agreement for not to open the line before November 27th (until after the UCLA game). Apparently they don't want to open the line after the football season starts (which already took place) because game-goers would think the line still doesn't operate because it wasn't operating during the previous game. So, it's very unlikely that the line will open before November 27 in any case. According to Rick Thorpe when he spoke to TTC, Expo has no say or opinion on when the line is open to the public. The opening date is up to Metro. And he didn't say that Metro didn't want to open until after the UCLA game, but rather that metro didn't want to open on that day. Further he said that if the line wasn't open before Thanksgiving that Metro preferred to open after the first of the year because the safety ambassadors are Metro employees volunteering for OT and they wouldn't have enough staff available between Thanksgiving and New Years. Based on his comments I think that opening this year is already off the table and the only question is do they open in January or wait until March.
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 17, 2011 16:40:17 GMT -8
That comment by outsiders has no reference whatsoever. One thing I found out is that Expo, Metro, and LADOT apparently did actually have an agreement for not to open the line before November 27th (until after the UCLA game). Apparently they don't want to open the line after the football season starts (which already took place) because game-goers would think the line still doesn't operate because it wasn't operating during the previous game. So, it's very unlikely that the line will open before November 27 in any case. Since the Culver City Station is now almost complete, and the testing that needs to be done there is minimal, they might just say that, "Hey, what are we doing? Why have two openings in two months? Let's wait another two months and open the line as a whole in February." Of course, this will be up to MTA. They've messed up so much with this line and one final big mess-up with the press giving headlines "Another MTA rail line to nowhere!" could be the worst mess-up they can avoid. For that reason I wouldn't be surprised with an initial opening to Culver City in February. I guarantee that "Another expo delay, this time due to pure incompetence by the management team" is far worse than "expo finally opens for most of phase 1 - Culver City to open in March". Because you know what? Saying the opening should be delayed from November to March because "some football fans might be confused" is the very height of idiocy. Look, USC is the big rider generator for phase 1, not Culver City. I'd bet large sums of money that if metro were to release station-by-station ridership pairing stats for 2012, you'll find that the majority of ridership is between USC and downtown. Only after phase 2 opens, will culver city start showing significant ridership. Terminals traditionally have the lowest ridership because traffic is one way only. The obvious exceptions are major traffic generators like Santa Monica, where the beach is a major draw AND a densely populated area. BTW: Massachusetts announced recently a delay to the green line extension. You know how people are reacting? Law suits are being prepared to force the state to open on the promised date (2016). LA lawyers should focus their lawsuits on incompetent management of projects and breach of contract by delaying of projects, not trying to block progress. If any store owner planned on opening this fall because they expected expo line to be there, and it gets delayed to March, they have an easy lawsuit on hand. Promising service on x date = oral contract. Any delay = lost business = metro (and the contractor) must pay.
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Post by macross287 on Sept 17, 2011 18:45:38 GMT -8
Metro should open this line at latest in January to coincide with the start of spring semester at USC. I doubt many students and staff will change the commute patterns if a full Expo line were to open in March, especially since its right in the middle of midterms.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Sept 18, 2011 19:40:54 GMT -8
Good lord. Folks - we're not the engineers. We're just board commentators. No more lawsuits, please.
Look, Expo Line will open up. We're all anxious. I live by Pico station and I can't wait to board with my bike to La Cienega and/or Culver City stations to complete my journey to work in Santa Monica (until Phase 2 opens). But, remember, Metro JUST received the line in the last few weeks. Let's handle this to the professionals. I'm just as anxious as all of you.
Now, I don't know what's happening in Massachussets, but trying to put a lawsuit up to Expo because they didn't open the line by the date they initially set (REMEMBER: Metro NEVER announced a public opening date...NEVER!; it was the Budget Committee when they were doing budget work). I work on budgets for my job...that's an EXPECTATION, not a GUARANTEE. Two different things.
I would love to know what you could sue as somebody said "I was told it was opening summer 2009"..."I was told summer 2010"....blah blah blah.
Again, we're board commentators, not engineers. They are more experienced then us. Let Metro give us an opening date; not the Budget Committee. Hence why you haven't heard anything on the Metro website or Twitter other that "Fall 2011".
Let's not get all Tea Party crazy here...where we work up angry crowds and turn into mobs.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Sept 18, 2011 20:40:02 GMT -8
I find it hard to believe that this way was nicer to look at than the way it is now Uhhhhhhh, because they're NIMBYS?
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 18, 2011 22:01:09 GMT -8
Good lord. Folks - we're not the engineers. We're just board commentators. No more lawsuits, please. Both the private and public sector must be held accountable for their actions which result in delays. Sitting around saying "oh well" does not hold anyone accountable and only encourages repeat behavior. Lawsuits can serve their purpose well if sued for what they are intended for. Suing because digging under a school may be dangerous is frivolous. Suing because of constant delays which result in real world economic losses is not frivolous. This is especially true if the delays are because metro doesn't want to spend money on operations. Every day the expo line stays closed, is a day metro has saved money. Also, as macross287 mentioned, opening in March is pretty damn useless for the USC community. Transportation plans are made before the semester starts, not during spring break.
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Post by wad on Sept 19, 2011 3:52:32 GMT -8
Also, as macross287 mentioned, opening in March is pretty damn useless for the USC community. Transportation plans are made before the semester starts, not during spring break. Then what's the harm in waiting longer? Like the traditional June operations shake-up? It'll give USC breathing room until the fall semester and football season, and all the service changes can occur at the same time.
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Post by rubbertoe on Sept 19, 2011 6:27:44 GMT -8
This is hilarious... I was driving through downtown going South on Hill to bypass the USC traffic on Saturday afternoon. Decided to get onto the freeway around Expo, so I ended up going down Washington and then Flower to check out the 23rd street station. There was a guy sitting in the station, on one of the benches, kicked back reading a book He had a large suitcase next to him. I should have taken a picture, maybe he was hoping to be the first rider (maybe one of you guys )? Not sure what he was doing there. Maybe just waiting for all the foot traffic for the game to subside before heading off somewhere. RT
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Post by davebowman on Sept 19, 2011 16:44:47 GMT -8
A few years ago I went to a Chargers game at Qualcomm stadium, travelling by car and suffering through massive traffic delays to get out of the stadium area after the game. I resolved the next time I went to a game there I would take the San Diego Trolley, and indeed I did for the opening game Sunday before last featuring Chargers vs. Vikings. I took a cab from my hotel to the Old Town Transit Center, and got there early because the MTS website warned that trolleys can be full after 11;00 am. Of course I caught a trolley right away, there were plenty of seats, and was at the stadium in about 15 minutes, no stress, and an all-day pass was $5.
I wondered what it would be like to make the return trip after the game, and since my seat was on the other side of the stadium from the trolley stop I got in line relatively late. The answer to my question was: the number of people taking the trolley was massive, and I waited in line for about an hour before boarding. The lines were about 10 times worse than Space Mountain at Disneyland on a busy summer day. So I'm not sure taking the trolley saved me much time after the game compared to driving, but it was cheaper and much less stressful.
What I'm worried about, though, is if taking the Expo Line to USC games at the Coliseum is as popular, there is going to have to be very well-organized crowd management by Metro, and well-defined queues in Exposition Park because the waiting areas at the USC/Watt Way and Vermont stops are so miniscule. If it isn't handled well, it could be a very bad situation.
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Post by Gokhan on Sept 19, 2011 17:05:11 GMT -8
This is hilarious... I was driving through downtown going South on Hill to bypass the USC traffic on Saturday afternoon. Decided to get onto the freeway around Expo, so I ended up going down Washington and then Flower to check out the 23rd street station. There was a guy sitting in the station, on one of the benches, kicked back reading a book He had a large suitcase next to him. I should have taken a picture, maybe he was hoping to be the first rider (maybe one of you guys )? Not sure what he was doing there. Maybe just waiting for all the foot traffic for the game to subside before heading off somewhere. RT I hope you told the poor guy that the estimated wait time is ...... 6 months! On the bright side, we know that the ridership of the line will be at least 1. LOL
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Post by jamesinclair on Sept 19, 2011 22:16:58 GMT -8
Then what's the harm in waiting longer? Like the traditional June operations shake-up? It'll give USC breathing room until the fall semester and football season, and all the service changes can occur at the same time. Hell, why not wait until Farmers Field opens? Its not like real people with real jobs plan on using the expo line. it'll just be a fun little game day diversion right? What I'm worried about, though, is if taking the Expo Line to USC games at the Coliseum is as popular, there is going to have to be very well-organized crowd management by Metro, and well-defined queues in Exposition Park because the waiting areas at the USC/Watt Way and Vermont stops are so miniscule. If it isn't handled well, it could be a very bad situation. Dont they shut down expo? The entire street can be a queue area. And yeah, for an "event" station, the USC stop sure has small platforms. It's almost like they didn't take into account the stadium when designing it.
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