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Post by JerardWright on Oct 31, 2011 19:58:22 GMT -8
Also, thoughts on the USC grade crossing for events at the Coliseum. First of all, Metro should have taken advantage of the problem this season. Run the test trains every 6 minutes with giant banners reading "Expo Line opening December 2011. Downtown for only $1.50!" That I would agree with you 100% use the testing phase to slowly introduce the interaction of crossing pedestrians with the trains. Most of that "Berlin Wall" is the open cut trench-the grade separation. The at-grade station is all but 400' of this separation, the rest of the alignment west of Trousdale has an open fenced design with landscaping to provide this visual connection. The argument makes little sense in that the very wall you're complaining about would have been a bigger wall and barrier for the entire stretch on Exposition because more of it would have been underground in the trench So that the pedestrians will have to cross a harder barrier in car traffic on Exposition. Where's the picture of the Vermont station that is less than 0.25 mile away from this station and have entrances at both ends? Showing another example of cost of LRT at-grade two stations close together handling large events. That's an operational issue more than an infrastructure issue as there are other systems next to major stadiums that are underground that do a piss-poor job of handling large crowds before and after station events while there are some that are mostly at-grade who handle these large demands beautifully and with very little delay.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 31, 2011 23:29:22 GMT -8
I dont understand the point. What additional safety does it provide? Actually, makes things more dangerous. People sit at gate that has been lowered for 45+ seconds and nothing happens. next time, theyre going to try to beat the gate, or take gates less seriously because they assume all gates are "broken" in that they dont reflect real world conditions. Think of it like pedestrian crossing signals that say "dont cross" long before the perpendicular traffic gets green. People jaywalk because they "know" they have another 30 seconds. Is this the case only at Farmdale? Mission Gold Line station and maybe 103rd/Kenneth Hahn Street on the Blue Line (I cannot confirm the Blue Line stop). But 100% yes, it happens, at the Mission station. Note: it doesn't make the traffic any worse....thousands of cars on streets make traffic worse, not the 90 seconds a signal is down.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 31, 2011 23:36:26 GMT -8
And leaving the game will be just as bad. Thousands of people trying to wait for a train, while thousands more walk over the track? One of my favorite days riding Metro rail is Halloween night. They were running at 8 - 10 minute headways on the Red Line at 11 pm at night due to how busy the subway was late at night for Halloween. The platform at Hollywood/Highland was overflowing, so the sheriffs would have to make people wait at the mezzanine for the platform to clear. It was awesome! Metro, due to the significant amount of patronage late at night, besides running the full 6 car trains, increased headways to meet service demands. If the need exists, Metro will provide the service. Before the start of the game, people generally arrive between 3 hours to game time, so service beforehand does not need to be adjusted. It will be the after game service that will need to be modified. Based on how I've seen Metro expand service during huge events (i.e. Laker parade in 2009 and 2010, Halloween events, New Years, etc..), they will provide additional rail service to keep people moving. They've proven it on their existing lines, we shouldn't expect anything less with the Expo Line.
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Post by ieko on Nov 1, 2011 2:14:12 GMT -8
It may not be possible to provide service in that way for the Expo Line until phase 2 is complete since most of the trains will be tied up with the Blue Line until then.
They might be able to do something late at night, but it'd still be hard because of the need for even headways.
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Post by transitfan on Nov 1, 2011 6:13:13 GMT -8
Why dont the gates wait until the train is ready to move to go down? Was it really so hard to design a gate where it can be activated by the driver? this Design was Orderd by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) Interesting. There are several instances on the Blue Line where the grade crossing is in close proximity to the station, and the train operator is able to enter the station (slowly), then pushes a button (primary request on the Nippon-Sharyo cars, dunno what it is called on the Bredas, as I have never ridden one), which causes the gates to close while the train is loading. Gates are down, train closes up and leaves. Wonder why they didn't want to use this system on Expo.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 1, 2011 6:42:39 GMT -8
It may not be possible to provide service in that way for the Expo Line until phase 2 is complete since most of the trains will be tied up with the Blue Line until then. They might be able to do something late at night, but it'd still be hard because of the need for even headways. It's already done with the Red and Purple Lines sharing the same track. They have timed service levels, but during events like this, I believe Metro will run 2 Red Line train for every 1 Purple Line train. So, they're already doing it.
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Post by masonite on Nov 1, 2011 8:13:09 GMT -8
It may not be possible to provide service in that way for the Expo Line until phase 2 is complete since most of the trains will be tied up with the Blue Line until then. They might be able to do something late at night, but it'd still be hard because of the need for even headways. It's already done with the Red and Purple Lines sharing the same track. They have timed service levels, but during events like this, I believe Metro will run 2 Red Line train for every 1 Purple Line train. So, they're already doing it. I am disappointed that there is no meeting on Thurs. as I thought we might get some good info, but the wait goes on. Not sure the Red/Purple example of sharing track is really an apples to apples for the Expo/Blue, because the subway is grade separated and the Blue and Expo lines are not, so running even headways is much more of a challenge here.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 1, 2011 11:53:28 GMT -8
Some motorcycle cop had been called to the La Cienega Station. Let's hope that one of our picture takers here didn't end up getting arrested trying to sneak up to the platform. Saw the motorcycle cop again today. It turns out that he is a traffic cop. He hides in the station plaza under the west side of the La Cienega Station and nails red-light runners and other traffic violators. As a matter of fact, he nailed one when I was waiting at the light there. So, the line is not running but it's already being used.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 1, 2011 12:09:17 GMT -8
.... Putting it underground would have allowed for more natural crossings, ones that actually work with the park and USC plans. Underground would have meant a green median, as an extension of the park. It would have meant bike lanes and sidewalks that aren't insults to pedestrians. Instead, it's ugly, it breaks up the environment, and it will be a hassle. As for game days? .... First of all there are no campus gates between Pardee Way and Trousdale Parkway -- there is a wall with pointed fence rods. Therefore, no one used to jaywalk there to begin with, and there has never been any need to jaywalk there. That applies to most of Exposition Boulevard, except where there are street crossings. I strongly disagree that it's ugly. On the contrary, I think it has greatly improved the looks of the campus. I also prefer an at-grade station very strongly over a subway station: People know that it's there. With a subway station, many ignorant people wouldn't even have realized that it was there. Even if they did, many would be scared to use a subway station at night in that neighborhood. This is simply much better than a subway station. As far as the game days are concerned, there are only six of them in a year and they are all on a Saturday, some of them are at night. All that is needed is for the trains to slow down during that time at Trousdale and no one will ever notice that. Throughout the world, light-rail trains run through extremely crowded pedestrian malls. Just like you would do with a car, you slow down when you see a crowd, and no one ever gets hit by a slow-moving light-rail train. And no one will care it will perhaps add a few seconds to the travel time on game-day Saturdays.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 1, 2011 12:15:36 GMT -8
They have started grading the Culver City parking lot for the station.
I didn't see any test trains today, perhaps I was unlucky or they were on a break. It looks like there is still some tweaking taking place in the signaling system, as the door for the communication building east of Crenshaw was open.
I didn't see any work taking place except at the Farmdale and Culver City Stations.
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Post by metrocenter on Nov 1, 2011 12:36:19 GMT -8
I dont understand the point. What additional safety does it provide? Actually, makes things more dangerous. People sit at gate that has been lowered for 45+ seconds and nothing happens. next time, theyre going to try to beat the gate, or take gates less seriously because they assume all gates are "broken" in that they dont reflect real world conditions. Think of it like pedestrian crossing signals that say "dont cross" long before the perpendicular traffic gets green. People jaywalk because they "know" they have another 30 seconds. Is this the case only at Farmdale? Mission Gold Line station and maybe 103rd/Kenneth Hahn Street on the Blue Line (I cannot confirm the Blue Line stop). But 100% yes, it happens, at the Mission station. Note: it doesn't make the traffic any worse....thousands of cars on streets make traffic worse, not the 90 seconds a signal is down. I was in South Pasadena a couple weeks ago with the family. I love how integrated the station is into the neighborhood, but the 90-second wait was ridiculous. The gates were down and nothing was happening. AND, the pedestrian signals were all red too, even the ones not crossing tracks. I can't see any justification for this.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 1, 2011 12:38:25 GMT -8
this Design was Orderd by the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) I dont understand the point. What additional safety does it provide? Actually, makes things more dangerous. People sit at gate that has been lowered for 45+ seconds and nothing happens. next time, theyre going to try to beat the gate, or take gates less seriously because they assume all gates are "broken" in that they dont reflect real world conditions. Think of it like pedestrian crossing signals that say "dont cross" long before the perpendicular traffic gets green. People jaywalk because they "know" they have another 30 seconds. Is this the case only at Farmdale? Yes. For the Expo Line, the Farmdale Station is unique. First of all, gates aren't required at all if the train speed is less than 35 MPH. The gates of Farmdale are extra safety features, not dictated by regular CPUC rules. Normally, the gated light-rail crossings are 55 MPH. There is a minimum time the gates need to stay down before the train arrives at the crossing for obvious crucial safety reasons. I think it's about 40 seconds. Then, as soon as the train dashes through the crossing, the gates go up. In the case of Farmdale, safety overkill was mandated by the settlement with LAUSD. First the gates come down. Then the train pulls to and stops at the station. Then the train dwells at the station. Then the train slowly (no more than 15 MPH) moves across the crossing until the front of the train clears the last pedestrian crossing. So, it adds up to more than a minute. Again, it's unique to Farmdale for the Expo Line.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Nov 1, 2011 12:46:52 GMT -8
It may not be possible to provide service in that way for the Expo Line until phase 2 is complete since most of the trains will be tied up with the Blue Line until then. They might be able to do something late at night, but it'd still be hard because of the need for even headways. Not "even" headways. Even multiples. They can run 12 minute headways on the blue line and 6 minute on Expo. They are already planning the reverse of that for rush hour.
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Post by ieko on Nov 1, 2011 17:26:33 GMT -8
It may not be possible to provide service in that way for the Expo Line until phase 2 is complete since most of the trains will be tied up with the Blue Line until then. They might be able to do something late at night, but it'd still be hard because of the need for even headways. Not "even" headways. Even multiples. They can run 12 minute headways on the blue line and 6 minute on Expo. They are already planning the reverse of that for rush hour. Yes, that's what I meant. The problem is still that -- you could do 6/12 for expo/blue if the demand is not heavy for the blue line -- but not if the demand is heavy for both. They're limited because of a lack of trains.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 1, 2011 18:24:52 GMT -8
So the Trip from 7th street Metro to Culver City looks like it will be a 30 min Trip I think they will be able to speed it up more during the prerevenue operation. I expect more like 25 minutes at the end.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 1, 2011 18:41:47 GMT -8
I think they will be able to speed it up more during the prerevenue operation. I expect more like 25 minutes at the end. My Timing is from LATTC to La Cienega Station and Back at 25min one wayNeed to Add 5min from 7th Street to LATTC that is how i get my 30 min Running TimeYes, that should add about 6 minutes, if not more. Hopefully the Culver City running time will be reduced to 25 minutes at the end.
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Post by transitfan on Nov 2, 2011 6:31:09 GMT -8
My Timing is from LATTC to La Cienega Station and Back at 25min one wayNeed to Add 5min from 7th Street to LATTC that is how i get my 30 min Running Time Yes, that should add about 6 minutes, if not more. Hopefully the Culver City running time will be reduced to 25 minutes at the end. There are usually schedule tweaks once the line is up and running, and the planners can see just how long the trip should take on average. When the Blue Line was fully open (7th St/Metro Center to Pacific), there was 1 hour allotted from 7th to Transit Mall. Well, it didn't actually take that long, so you had a situation where two trains would be in Transit Mall station at certain times (train one would be already there, train two would arrive, then train one left 5 minutes later (IIRC) and another train would arrive right behind it. Also, there was a scheduled hold at 1st St station for like 5 minutes. They were assigning 15 trains on a 10-minute headway. Eventually, RTD cut it down to 14 trains and got rid of the 1st St hold, also the dwell time at Transit Mall may have been decreased slightly. So, the same will probably happen w/ Expo.
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Post by jamesinclair on Nov 2, 2011 12:25:23 GMT -8
Lets see if I get all this quoting right... The argument makes little sense in that the very wall you're complaining about would have been a bigger wall and barrier for the entire stretch on Exposition because more of it would have been underground in the trench No, I never said more trench. Trench is dumb. I said a proper underground tunnel for one more block, capped with either a green median, OR, moving the road and adding space on the sides (bike lanes, wider sidewalks, trees) So that the pedestrians will have to cross a harder barrier in car traffic on Exposition. It's not really a barrier because of crosswalks. And traffic isnt a solid wall, like a brick wall literally is. That's an operational issue more than an infrastructure issue as there are other systems next to major stadiums that are underground that do a piss-poor job of handling large crowds before and after station events while there are some that are mostly at-grade who handle these large demands beautifully and with very little delay. When youre building a rail line from scratch, knowing about a 90 year old stadium, it should be done right. As in, wide platforms, multiple entrances/exits and no grade crossing of 70,000 fans. if the stadium was built 10 years after opening, I can accept that it wasnt designed right, but thats not the case. Note: it doesn't make the traffic any worse....thousands of cars on streets make traffic worse, not the 90 seconds a signal is down. Im not claiming that the 90 seconds makes traffic worse, Im claiming that it's stupid and will annoy people. There is simply no need for gates to block the tracks when no train is crossing. Based on how I've seen Metro expand service during huge events (i.e. Laker parade in 2009 and 2010, Halloween events, New Years, etc..), they will provide additional rail service to keep people moving. They've proven it on their existing lines, we shouldn't expect anything less with the Expo Line. My concern isnt with running enough trains, it's that nowhere in the system are 70,000 people expected to walk over the track that is running active service, and have to sue tiny little station platforms. Pico is the closest example, and I dare anyone here to claim it works well. First of all there are no campus gates between Pardee Way and Trousdale Parkway -- there is a wall with pointed fence rods. Therefore, no one used to jaywalk there to begin with, and there has never been any need to jaywalk there. That applies to most of Exposition Boulevard, except where there are street crossings. This logic doesnt make sense. "Nobody crosses except at the crossing, so more crossings arent needed" Huh? Thats like saying nobody rides trains on expo, so building a rail line isnt needed. The USC border fence is ugly and unneeded. It should be removed, and doing so is quite simple. Building a crosswalk across a light rail station is impossible, and can never be fixed. The street is now doomed to suck, forever. Here are the current crossings, in green. Here are where there should be crossing points, in red. I strongly disagree that it's ugly. On the contrary, I think it has greatly improved the looks of the campus. I also prefer an at-grade station very strongly over a subway station: People know that it's there. With a subway station, many ignorant people wouldn't even have realized that it was there. Even if they did, many would be scared to use a subway station at night in that neighborhood. This is simply much better than a subway station. If people are scared you use your stations, then you've designed it wrong. The Hollywood stations are well designed, and nobody is scared to use them. Design it right, and its not a problem. The current station is scarier to use than an underground one because its so narrow, and theres only one exit. if theres a problem, youre trapped. As far as the game days are concerned, there are only six of them in a year and they are all on a Saturday, some of them are at night. All that is needed is for the trains to slow down during that time at Trousdale and no one will ever notice that. Throughout the world, light-rail trains run through extremely crowded pedestrian malls. Just like you would do with a car, you slow down when you see a crowd, and no one ever gets hit by a slow-moving light-rail train. And no one will care it will perhaps add a few seconds to the travel time on game-day Saturdays. There may only be USC games, but there are also international soccer games, concerts, raves, and many other events. Yes, streetcars and trolleys run through slow pedestrian malls. But I thought metro was building a 55mph light rail line? I agree, no one will ever get hit, thats not the concern, terrible service is. Add a few seconds? It will add at least 5 minutes per train, which will lead to delayed across the line and on the blue line. I fully expect metro to warn people of 30 minute delays during every event.
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Post by JerardWright on Nov 2, 2011 13:35:52 GMT -8
The argument makes little sense in that the very wall you're complaining about would have been a bigger wall and barrier for the entire stretch on Exposition because more of it would have been underground in the trench No, I never said more trench. Trench is dumb. I said a proper underground tunnel for one more block, capped with either a green median, OR, moving the road and adding space on the sides (bike lanes, wider sidewalks, trees) Well the implication is to continue this underground. Switching it from trench to completely underground here is more than meets the eye because you would have to deal with that portal that requires the trains to transition from below to at/above grade and where will that portal transition be located? to we move that one more block as well? You're quibbling over something that is in direct interest by the campus at-large the very thing they wanted. I would agree with part of that statement. However the no grade crossing issue isn't something that is absolutely neccessary its all about crowd control and movements. are all 70K coming at one time? NO. Yes, that is a good example but notice the major fix is not putting the whole thing underground it's about adding an additional platform. With this Coliseum example there's another platform available, that's called Vermont Station. With another station on both sides of this station less than 0.5 mile up to Jefferson and 0.25 mile to Vermont even if this line was underground you would never have this section would get at 55mph.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 2, 2011 14:21:50 GMT -8
I strongly disagree that it's ugly. On the contrary, I think it has greatly improved the looks of the campus. I also prefer an at-grade station very strongly over a subway station: People know that it's there. With a subway station, many ignorant people wouldn't even have realized that it was there. Even if they did, many would be scared to use a subway station at night in that neighborhood. This is simply much better than a subway station. That's a matter of opinion, and not a fact. The Westlake/MacArthur Park is much busier at night than nearly every light rail station at night. Also, isn't Soto one of the busier Gold Line stations (and it's a subway station)? I know you've said that before, but truly the argument of "out of sight, out of mind" is totally irregardless to a Metro rail station. Otherwise, the busiest transit systems in the world would not be NYMTA, London UNDERground, Paris Metropolitan, SF BART, Chicago CTA, etc.... No light rail system with primarily above ground stations at the busiest areas have higher ridership than those primarily UNDERground systems. But, I agree with jamesinclair on one point, that I wish the Expo Line did go underneath Trousdale pedestrian street crossing. 1 more block, in a covered trench, would have been ideal. Otherwise, I do fear the Expo Line will have to be a little more cautious on special event days thus causing an unnecessary delay to the system. Light rail should have priority...not take a back seat to pedestrians or cars.
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Post by darrell on Nov 2, 2011 14:22:50 GMT -8
This photo from a USC game day in 2004 shows how the fans crossing Exposition Blvd. have long been stopped as needed.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Nov 2, 2011 17:52:38 GMT -8
Yes, that's what I meant. The problem is still that -- you could do 6/12 for expo/blue if the demand is not heavy for the blue line -- but not if the demand is heavy for both. They're limited because of a lack of trains. Are you sure that they're limited by the lack of trains? Seems like Expo would only need 10 or at most 12 3-car trains to run at 6-minute headways. What they don't have yet is anywhere to store that many trains, but they can work around that I would think. It would help to have that layover yard near Washington station, but I still don't think that they've started yet,
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Post by jamesinclair on Nov 2, 2011 19:39:16 GMT -8
I strongly disagree that it's ugly. On the contrary, I think it has greatly improved the looks of the campus. I also prefer an at-grade station very strongly over a subway station: People know that it's there. With a subway station, many ignorant people wouldn't even have realized that it was there. Even if they did, many would be scared to use a subway station at night in that neighborhood. This is simply much better than a subway station. That's a matter of opinion, and not a fact. The Westlake/MacArthur Park is much busier at night than nearly every light rail station at night. Also, isn't Soto one of the busier Gold Line stations (and it's a subway station)? I know you've said that before, but truly the argument of "out of sight, out of mind" is totally irregardless to a Metro rail station. Otherwise, the busiest transit systems in the world would not be NYMTA, London UNDERground, Paris Metropolitan, SF BART, Chicago CTA, etc.... No light rail system with primarily above ground stations at the busiest areas have higher ridership than those primarily UNDERground systems. But, I agree with jamesinclair on one point, that I wish the Expo Line did go underneath Trousdale pedestrian street crossing. 1 more block, in a covered trench, would have been ideal. Otherwise, I do fear the Expo Line will have to be a little more cautious on special event days thus causing an unnecessary delay to the system. Light rail should have priority...not take a back seat to pedestrians or cars. Underground stations also allow a much larger footprint, as you can and do have multiple entrances and exits. 4 is standard, two on each side of the road on the end of each platform. Better for crowd control, and better for convenience. With the current setup, you might find yourself at the east end of the platform on the park side, and have to walk ALL THE WAY down to the light, to cross, to be able to walk down the platform again, as theres no second entrance. Heres another downside, and I see this all the time in Boston with their light rail (above ground) system: With the current system, USC students will see a train arriving and run across the street to reach it, because I GUARANTEE that traffic signal will be 100% set to improve "traffic flow" and takes zero consideration of pedestrian/train movement. That is, a smart system would give pedestrians time to cross 15 seconds before a train was to arrive and then again once the train unloaded. Most likely, helpless riders will see a red hand when their trains pulls in and then slowly leaves, especially troublesome at nights when 20 minute headways kick in. Underground, thats not an issue. You can look at a monitor outside the station, see "1 minute" and know you have an unimpeded run down the stairs. No big red hands ruining your night.
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Post by Gokhan on Nov 2, 2011 22:59:00 GMT -8
What is the Date that a decision is to handed Down for the appeal of the Case
Neighbors for Smart Rail v. Exposition Metro Line Construction Authority
It is to Be some time in Nov Not any time soon. Probably sometime in the spring. The decision is not needed for the construction to start.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 3, 2011 7:12:19 GMT -8
What is the Date that a decision is to handed Down for the appeal of the Case
Neighbors for Smart Rail v. Exposition Metro Line Construction Authority
It is to Be some time in Nov Not any time soon. Probably sometime in the spring. The decision is not needed for the construction to start. Mid-May 2012 is the projected date of the final decision Per Streetsblog: "Expo’s Response to the Appeal is due October 17 but could be extended to November 1 if the agency requests. Then NFSR has another three weeks to reply to the Authority’s brief. Sometime in the 90 days after the filing of the last brief, the court will hear oral arguments before making it’s decision, sometime in the 90 days after that. All in all, it could be mid-May before a final ruling is issued." la.streetsblog.org/2011/09/27/its-official-back-to-court-for-expo-phase-ii-and-nfsr/
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Post by bzcat on Nov 3, 2011 9:56:57 GMT -8
People riding Expo to Coliseum from the west will use Vermont Station. People arriving from the north and want to tailgate on campus can use the Jefferson station as well. So I think the concern about crowds overloading Expo Park/USC station is over blown. It's not like Pico station at all. I'm on the fence (pun intended ) about the walled off trench. I really don't mind it but I can see that if the line was completely underground, it may look a little better. USC chose to fence in its campus and that is not going to change so arguing about potential crossing points is a bit of red herring.
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Post by carter on Nov 4, 2011 15:19:13 GMT -8
I drove the length of the line today. Only thing interesting to report was that it looked like a 3 car train was testing out the USC trench.
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Post by James Fujita on Nov 4, 2011 15:25:29 GMT -8
At-grade vs. underground vs. trenching is very situational. There is no way that I would build the Regional Connector as an at-grade line, for example. Personally, I prefer underground over at-grade just on general principles: faster and less need to watch out for traffic, be it automotive or pedestrian. However, underground is more expensive, and underground stations really need more portals (more portals than the MTA has been giving) in order to be visible. Obviously, underground Metro Rail systems around the world do get around the "invisible" handicap just fine. At the same time, I can't justify an underground station at USC. Clearly traffic is enough of a concern that they trenched the intersection, but it would have been challenging to go underground just for that segment. I do think that more pedestrian crossings are something that could be further investigated in the future, though. If not a crosswalk, than a bridge perhaps? Something like the "USC Alumni class of 19XX expo bridge" from campus to the park
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 4, 2011 20:10:39 GMT -8
Hmm...6 am to 12 am beginning Monday through Sunday...would this imply that pre-revenue operation begins Monday or one more week of intense testing and then pre-revenue the following week?
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Post by roadtrainer on Nov 4, 2011 20:55:55 GMT -8
A note to all parties concerning the USC trench. It is not a trench as you think it is....It is a subway and deemed that way by the CPUC! That's why ventilation was put in the subway, it was ordered by the CPUC. The trench under Figueroa is just that ...a trench, no ventilation is needed! So L.A. now has 4 subways! Can you name them all?
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