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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2011 17:51:43 GMT -8
Here are some details about the prerevenue operation in general, taken form the FTA handbook on the testing & start-up phase. Prerevenue operation can only start after substantial completion, which hasn't been reached for the Expo Line yet but it's expected to be reached in a few weeks. Until the contractor puts all certification documents on the system-integration testing together, the substantial completion isn't reached and the prerevenue operation cannot start. Also, as mentioned below, prerevenue operation is to "mimic" regular service, including the maintenance activities. Unless the trains are running from 7th/Metro and returning to their storage yard at night and all this is being done on the regular schedule, it's not prerevenue operation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 6.3.6 Pre-Revenue Operations Successful completion of system integration tests usually constitutes “substantial completion” and leads to the start of pre-revenue operations and testing. Sufficient time must be allocated to complete all testing and operations training prior to the date established to begin revenue service. These operations should be designed to mimic revenue operations and maintenance activities, except that passengers will not be carried. The following items may be considered in the evaluation of pre-revenue operations: • Notification procedures • Control center response • Transportation supervisory response • Maintenance response • Emergency responder response • Traction power sectionalization • Loss of signals and/or communications • Accident investigation procedures • Single-tracking performance • Simulated bus substitution • Train evacuation • Assumption of authority • Rescue train • Simulated public notification • “On the line” vehicle troubleshooting • Simulated emergency training ----------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by darrell on Dec 6, 2011 18:33:17 GMT -8
Here are some details about the prerevenue operation in general ... Now we even have the nuance between "prerevenue testing" and "prerevenue operation". Just the thing for us geeks and no one else! At any rate, I think I'll just drop the "pre-revenue" so it merely says "testing" on friends4expo.org's main page.
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 6, 2011 19:19:42 GMT -8
Honestly though, Metro does need to get more information out. Otherwise, we will keep getting second-hand sources telling us what they assume the date will be or ought to be. How much more clearer can the Source be? From the Source Steve Hymon December 5, 2011 | 12:29 pm I love the Source. I think the Source is a wonderful source (no pun intended) of news, opinion and information, including some viewpoints which don't always agree with the "official" transit nerd platform - especially from the outside comments [ I don't always agree with Y Fukuzawa, but her views are worth hearing. ] However, there are other channels other than the Source which the MTA really could employ more often (how about just plain ol' press releases?). They need to do a better job of getting news out to the general public, and not just the transit nerd elite. = And it is probably for the better that Darrell drops the "pre-revenue" part from the testing news on the main page. Clarity and accuracy are always important. If you can't be precise ("stage 3 pre-revenue testing"), at least we can be accurate.
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Post by newton on Dec 6, 2011 22:33:04 GMT -8
Hey guys,
Metro did use a press release to announce the handover from Expo Construction to Metro. The title of the document was, "Expo Line Pre revenue Service Release.doc" Thus, the source of my and other people's confusion was the Metro PR Department...
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 7, 2011 0:02:46 GMT -8
Hey guys, Metro did use a press release to announce the handover from Expo Construction to Metro. The title of the document was, "Expo Line Pre revenue Service Release.doc" Thus, the source of my and other people's confusion was the Metro PR Department... Yes, I think Metro jumped the gun themselves this time. I think it should have been called prerevenue service approaching or something rather than prerevenue service. By the way, the best terminology is "prerevenue operation(s)."
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Post by crzwdjk on Dec 7, 2011 1:23:46 GMT -8
On the topic of testing and pre-revenue service: the Moscow Metro just opened an extension of three stations on its Line 10. The handover from the construction company to the Metro was on Nov 24th, the line opened on Dec 1, which means just about one week of pre-revenue testing. Now, this isn't directly comparable: Expo is longer, and has grade crossings and street running, which imply interfaces with the city's traffic signal system, and the Moscow extension had the tie-in to the existing line designed in from the start. Still, it's an addition to an existing system using proven rolling stock and the drivers they already have, and designed to more or less the same standards as what's already there, and they don't consider the many months or even weeks of testing to be necessary.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 7, 2011 13:18:09 GMT -8
On the topic of testing and pre-revenue service: the Moscow Metro just opened an extension of three stations on its Line 10. The handover from the construction company to the Metro was on Nov 24th, the line opened on Dec 1, which means just about one week of pre-revenue testing. Now, this isn't directly comparable: Expo is longer, and has grade crossings and street running, which imply interfaces with the city's traffic signal system, and the Moscow extension had the tie-in to the existing line designed in from the start. Still, it's an addition to an existing system using proven rolling stock and the drivers they already have, and designed to more or less the same standards as what's already there, and they don't consider the many months or even weeks of testing to be necessary. Of course it's not necessary. The drivers aren't bumbling idiots, theyre professionals. Drive the line 3-4 times, and you've memorized all the "kinks". Of course, a well engineered line wouldn't have anything that the drivers would have to look out for (like hard to see signal or whatever). Stuff like the gates working and such should be 100% before stage 3 testing. 6 weeks is quite ludicrous, and I feel that whoever put that into the fed manual was trying to cripple rail transit. Ask yourself this, when a new bus line is created, how many weeks of testing is done so that the drivers know the route? Im not blaming expo/metro, Im blaming the feds.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 7, 2011 14:03:09 GMT -8
Privacy Screens? Newest Attempt to Snare Expo Gains Key Allyby Damien Newton on December 7, 2011Plan B? Photo: Home Depot, CanadaFor months, the idea of “privacy screens” has been bandied about at meetings of the Expo Construction Authority Board of Directors but few took the idea that anyone would place large screens on top of the soundwalls adjacent to the line seriously. However, at last week’s meeting of the Expo Board of Directors, Board Member and newly-minted L.A. City Council President Herb Wesson seemed to take the idea very seriously. “I want to get it done,” Wesson argued. While staff ultimately agreed to comply, they raised questions about whether they would need to raise the screens for the entire route and where funding would come from. “These screens can be placed on top of the soundwalls to address concerns about privacy issues for homes immediately adjacent to the ROW,” explains Construction Authority spokesperson Gabriela Collins. ”These are not included as part of the baseline project and are not required by the environmental document. We have done some preliminary design work to ascertain the cost and whether or not the screens could be added to the soundwalls, but have no designs at this time.” Even with Wesson’s backing, there are two reasons that the addition of these soundwalls is a long shot. The first is politics. With the handoff of Phase I of the Expo Line from the Construction Authority who built the line to Metro who will run the line, it would take a vote of both the Expo Board and the Metro Board to approve such a project. Even with enough votes rounded up to pass the proposal, there is still no money to pay for these “privacy screens” and there’s no obvious third party that would be interested in providing such funds. The other reason that the screens are a long shot is that even if the political will and funding were available, adding the screens doesn’t make a lot of sense. A recent video of Phase I that appears on The Source makes it look nigh impossible to see anything that would be considered a violation of privacy over the existing soundwalls. If the concern is that the “privacy shields” would reduce the train noises for residents, the accompanying bells and whistles that would come with the reduced visibility would most likely cause more noise than the train would ever produce. But while privacy screens for the rail line are a long shot, a walled-off bike path in Santa Monica for Phase II of the Expo Line is looking like a surer bet. On Monday the Air Resources Board heard a request from the Lantana Center and Media Campus to build a 1,370 foot wall right alongside the proposed bike path that will parallel the Expo tracks in Santa Monica. This would mean that for a full quarter mile, bicyclists would be trapped between trains and a 12-foot sound wall.
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dane
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by dane on Dec 7, 2011 15:14:51 GMT -8
I would be all for the screens if it meant the funds to build them came from cancelled projects in Wesson's district ;-)
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Post by jdrcrasher on Dec 7, 2011 16:22:25 GMT -8
They won't happen... there's no funding. They cannot possibly find funding for this colossal waste of taxpayer money...
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Post by mattapoisett on Dec 7, 2011 22:59:56 GMT -8
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 8, 2011 9:04:26 GMT -8
Everyone is correct re: the pre-rev issue. But one thing to consider is that Metro's press release about train service ramping up had "pre-revenue" in the subject title (though it wasn't mentioned in the body). So, it's easy to see how folks got confused. All this being said, I'm getting a little disillusioned. It's crazy to see the speed of the 405 project, while the Expo Line moves at a snail's pace. The Culver City station?? WTF! How is Metro not cracking the whip? They're going to start getting some major backlash if they don't some pedal to the medal on some of these projects, especially with the delays over Westside subway EIR, Regional connector EIR, and now Wilshire bus lanes. They had a lot of goodwill with the Gold and Orange Lines and I'm worried they're going to squander it. I am not one to preach patience in the face of incompetence. But I also know that following the progress of a project too closely is like putting a magnifying glass on a face: it tends to expose all the warts, pimples and imperfections. You're bound to get extremely frustrated with every speed bump, large or small, that the project encounters. The lack progress is frustrating but it's not at all surprising. It's almost always like this. The Gold Line, the Red Line, and even the Blue Line faced delays leading up to opening day. Even the 405 highway project experienced major delays in it's previous phase. Much of it is just poor planning, I think. People constantly slam government, claiming it is too incompetent to build anything. But when it comes down to it, these projects are often delayed due to screwups from private contractors, not government.
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Post by darrell on Dec 8, 2011 18:15:17 GMT -8
A repost of my 11/11/11 estimated timetable: Flower & 7th Flower & Pico -- 2 minutes Flower & 23rd -- 3-4 Flower & Jefferson -- 2-3 Expo & Vermont -- 3-4 Expo & Western -- 3-4 Expo & Crenshaw -- 3-4 Expo & La Brea -- 3 Jefferson & La Cienega -- 2 Venice & Robertson -- 2 Phase 1 subtotal -- 23-28National & Palms -- 2 Expo & Westwood -- 3 Expo & Sepulveda -- 1 Expo & Bundy -- 2 Olympic & 26th -- 2 Colorado & 17th -- 2-3 Colorado & 4th -- 3-4 Phase 2 subtotal -- 15-17Total -- 38-45 I finally got to follow a train about 3:00 p.m. today. Here are its approximate times: 23rd Jefferson -- 2 minutes (short stops at Adams, 28th) Trousdale -- 3 (short stop at Jefferson) Vermont -- 1 (short stop at Vermont) Western -- 4 (long stop at Normandie) Crenshaw -- 3 Farmdale -- 2 La Brea -- 3 Total 23rd to La Brea = 18 minutes Estimate above for same interval = 14-18 minutes It did pretty well even at the intersections where it stopped, with the exception of Normandie, where I drove through a late green, but the train stopped and waited through the full straight red and turn cycles before proceeding. An annoyance as a driver is that the signals don't seem coordinated with the gates. You'd think the parallel traffic would go when the gates are down, but no, I got yellows east of Crenshaw and a red at Buckingham, after which the cross traffic got to go first. So the train was beyond Farmdale before I got there and I couldn't see how it crossed the street; I only saw it on the La Bridge at a long distance; and I had no chance of timing its final stop at La Cienega. Dorsey kids were leaving campus, watched by a police officer parked on Exposition facing west. When I passed the kids were waiting at a red light on the north side of the tracks to cross Exposition Blvd., which seemed more of an inconvenience than crossing the tracks was.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 9, 2011 13:32:49 GMT -8
An annoyance as a driver is that the signals don't seem coordinated with the gates. You'd think the parallel traffic would go when the gates are down, but no, I got yellows east of Crenshaw and a red at Buckingham, after which the cross traffic got to go first. How can cross traffic go with the gates down? Is it just before the gates came down in order to allow the vehicles on the tracks or vehicles spilling over the previous intersection behind to clear the tracks or previous intersection? If that is so, it's a very necessary safety feature. You need to clear the intersections and tracks before the gates can come down. They really should synchronize the lights before they go into the prerevenue operation. From what it sounds, they haven't synchronized them yet.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 9, 2011 17:00:38 GMT -8
Looks like another Friday has come and gone with no word on Stage 3 testing?
I guess Metro is aiming to open the line to Santa Monica all at once.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 9, 2011 17:12:07 GMT -8
Looks like another Friday has come and gone with no word on Stage 3 testing? I guess Metro is aiming to open the line to Santa Monica all at once. Expo and Metro jumped the gun by mentioning prerevenue operation in their news releases. They should have never done that. They can't legally start the prerevenue operation before the substantial completion takes place, which hasn't. Once that happens, they need to make sure everything is working before they can start the prerevenue operation. The line will certainly open quite soon, in about two to four months. What I don't understand is why the Culver City work is progressing so slowly. If that keeps going that slow, expect a February opening to La Cienega and then a Culver City opening in July or August.
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outthere15
New Member
Take back the rails
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Post by outthere15 on Dec 9, 2011 18:50:01 GMT -8
I work near the Expo/La Cienega Station and drive the area along the route to Culver City and it appears to me that work on the site-work has all but ceased. There is some landscaping work ongoing along the tracks but nothing much is happening elsewhere.
Does anyone have any info on what's going on?
Mark Itz
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Post by simonla on Dec 9, 2011 19:32:35 GMT -8
Good question, outthere15. Not to get all tea party, but I'm getting quite annoyed. After numerous delays, the Culver City station was supposed to open in early 2012--now it looks like we'll be lucky if we see an opening to La Cienega in that timeframe. Why exactly? I would really hope there's a good reason to the work-stoppage. It's only a matter of time before the LA Times runs a front-page piece on the delays.
Speaking of that, while the Westside subway project has a great PR team that's doing efficient battle with Beverly Hills, PR effort on Expo is laughable. They send out a release with pre-revenue in the subject line, leading to mass confusion and forcing explanations that, 'No, we're not really that close to opening.' You have various Expo/Metro outlets--the Source, the Facebook page--saying late 2011 as the opening when the Construction Authority likely knew for awhile that was not gonna happen. Sorry to get negative, but this is getting embarrassing.
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outthere15
New Member
Take back the rails
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Post by outthere15 on Dec 9, 2011 20:10:55 GMT -8
This brings up an interesting point, I must assume that someone from their marketing team reads the blogs/boards and can feel the frustration that is out there with the lack of or at least muddled information that we are all dealing with.
Do you think that Metro just doesn't care are are they not are in tune with modern media?
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Post by simonla on Dec 9, 2011 23:57:05 GMT -8
Oh, Metro. Audit faults MTA for lack of planning U.S. says the transit agency failed to consider the effect of eliminating bus lines, adding services or changing fares. Review finds problems in communicating with those who don't speak English. www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mta-audit-20111210,0,3475552.story
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 10, 2011 1:00:07 GMT -8
It's only a matter of time before the LA Times runs a front-page piece on the delays. Quite frankly, the front page "metro fails" article should have run last month when it was obvious 2011 wasnt happening. The job of the media is to keep incompetence in check by embarrassing agencies into doing their job. The media is failing at that. Right now, expo/metro is feeling no pressure to make sure their contractors are doing their job.
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Post by darrell on Dec 10, 2011 12:50:19 GMT -8
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Post by Justin Walker on Dec 11, 2011 11:58:54 GMT -8
Ahead of the UCLA - USC game, the train parked by Trousdale Parkway has a sign that reads: "Take Metro to Coliseum in 2012." Justin, perhaps a picture of this sign when you walk across the tracks on Saturday? I've been meaning to post these for those who haven't seen them yet (better late than never, I suppose): These pictures were taken a few days before we clobbered UCLA's football team. Since then, when the Expo Line trains are parked next to Trade Tech and not testing, the "Coliseum card" has been posted in the cab of the northmost railcar facing Washington Blvd.
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Post by masonite on Dec 11, 2011 18:37:59 GMT -8
It's only a matter of time before the LA Times runs a front-page piece on the delays. Quite frankly, the front page "metro fails" article should have run last month when it was obvious 2011 wasnt happening. The job of the media is to keep incompetence in check by embarrassing agencies into doing their job. The media is failing at that. Right now, expo/metro is feeling no pressure to make sure their contractors are doing their job. I don't agree with that at all. I am pretty sure the Expo Authority and Metro and the contractor are feeling a lot of pressure to get the line open (there has been quite a bit of negative press, pressure on the politicians and so forth). However, it is a lot more complicated than a matter of wanting to finish the line. A negative LA Times article is hardly going to change anything. The Expo Authority did a poor job in setting the contract terms and the contractor itself has been horrible. It has been a frustrating process and it is unlikely the line will open before March at this point. I, myself have on to looking at Phase II construction and hope that everything goes smoothly for this. So far, Expo and their contractor seem to be on their game, but it is early.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 11, 2011 21:09:09 GMT -8
Quite frankly, the front page "metro fails" article should have run last month when it was obvious 2011 wasnt happening. The job of the media is to keep incompetence in check by embarrassing agencies into doing their job. The media is failing at that. Right now, expo/metro is feeling no pressure to make sure their contractors are doing their job. I don't agree with that at all. I am pretty sure the Expo Authority and Metro and the contractor are feeling a lot of pressure to get the line open (there has been quite a bit of negative press, pressure on the politicians and so forth). However, it is a lot more complicated than a matter of wanting to finish the line. A negative LA Times article is hardly going to change anything. The Expo Authority did a poor job in setting the contract terms and the contractor itself has been horrible. It has been a frustrating process and it is unlikely the line will open before March at this point. I, myself have on to looking at Phase II construction and hope that everything goes smoothly for this. So far, Expo and their contractor seem to be on their game, but it is early. My biggest problem when public projects get delayed is that the contractor is almost never penalized. Instead, theyre given more money. Media scrutiny works to make the agencies act. It happens all the time. The fact that the current contractor hasnt been sued out of business by Metro yet is a problem.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 11, 2011 22:05:54 GMT -8
My biggest problem when public projects get delayed is that the contractor is almost never penalized. Instead, theyre given more money. Media scrutiny works to make the agencies act. It happens all the time. The fact that the current contractor hasnt been sued out of business by Metro yet is a problem. I was in the contractor business before so I can understand what's happening. When we get delayed, we blame the client (i.e. in this case, it would be Metro) and then Metro would blame us. In the end, we'll have to come to a settlement to say x number of greater hours = $y000. We agree to disagree, but then have to agree on an amount to finish a job. It may be a public project, but that doesn't mean the contractor still needs to pay its employees and perform its work. There's delays and some contractor fault, other 3rd parties (hello..anybody remember LADWP's delays at La Brea, La Cienega, etc..) or Farmdale lawsuit, etc... Those are delays, but the contractor needs to still be paid. I'm sure the contractor ate up a ton of costs (heck, we do too at the same time, but of course, nobody cares about contractors). So, this is normal course of business. What are you going to sue? There would be no jurisdication, unless there was proof of misappropriation of assets. Metro would have to proof that; that's if they want the lawyers involved. Which they did previously and cut down what the contractor requested to only $20 million I recall a few months back.
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Post by Justin Walker on Dec 12, 2011 12:12:15 GMT -8
FYI, today, I noticed that all of the new signals on the Blue Line have been activated and are being observed by Blue Line trains. This is the first time I have seen them activated outside of testing activities. Presumably, they are on for good now.
Activated signal groups include: -Venice Interlocking -Washington/Flower Junction -Grand Ave. Hold Signals -Maple Interlocking -Los Angeles St. Hold Signals
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 12, 2011 12:54:57 GMT -8
I tried following the Expo Line over the weekend, it was rolling by! That's awesome, that the train will beat the car!
The lights appeared synchronized yesterday, it didn't stop anywhere when it was between stations. Interesting thing at Hauser/Expo though, the lights were green for cross traffic but the barriers came down for the train to cross. No cars were able to get through because the barriers were down, but odd that the cross traffic received a green signal. So there are some fixes still to happen on signaling. But all in all, it doesn't look to have East LA Gold Line or Long Beach Blue Line non-synchronization.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 13, 2011 13:11:58 GMT -8
I tried following the Expo Line over the weekend, it was rolling by! That's awesome, that the train will beat the car! The lights appeared synchronized yesterday, it didn't stop anywhere when it was between stations. Interesting thing at Hauser/Expo though, the lights were green for cross traffic but the barriers came down for the train to cross. No cars were able to get through because the barriers were down, but odd that the cross traffic received a green signal. So there are some fixes still to happen on signaling. But all in all, it doesn't look to have East LA Gold Line or Long Beach Blue Line non-synchronization. This line doesn't seem to be ready for prime time. Today I was waiting at Buckingham Rd headed eastbound on Exposition Blvd. After the light turned green for me, several cars drove south in front of me for several seconds. It appeared that the lights were solid green in both cross directions. Nice.
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Post by darrell on Dec 13, 2011 14:11:00 GMT -8
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