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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 4, 2011 2:01:54 GMT -8
is the bike lane usable now or is it still a worthless gutter?
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 4, 2011 6:55:01 GMT -8
is the bike lane usable now or is it still a worthless gutter? Expo Line bikeway is about the same usability as any bike lane in LA that's not painted green or buffered. Not much different than the Santa Monica boulevard bike lane, MLK bike lane, multiple Valley lanes, etc.. I did it on Thursday, it's still good to me.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 4, 2011 11:10:36 GMT -8
is the bike lane usable now or is it still a worthless gutter? A lot of people have been using them ever since the bike lanes were painted on along the Expo Line.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 4, 2011 12:55:22 GMT -8
is the bike lane usable now or is it still a worthless gutter? Expo Line bikeway is about the same usability as any bike lane in LA that's not painted green or buffered. Not much different than the Santa Monica boulevard bike lane, MLK bike lane, multiple Valley lanes, etc.. I did it on Thursday, it's still good to me. Thats incorrect, the quality of the pavement + seam where the concrete gutter began made it unusable in some parts. Some areas were also painted less than code (under 4 feet).
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 4, 2011 16:04:42 GMT -8
I haven't been on the messageboards for a while, so I haven't been watching this fun little soap opera unfold but: 1) I am disappointed to see ExpoLineFan go. I pay attention to his photos at Flickr. We shouldn't really be making fun of him when others of us have attempted to go solo2) yes, we can have arguments, heated discussions and disagreements. I totally EXPECT it. better to hash it out here, find the flaws and mistakes in our thinking (including my own!). 3) actually, I sort of agree with ExpoLineFan that people can act like dicks, without specifically mentioning anybody in particular. we don't have to agree, but we ought to be more civil. Well, I'm not a mod, so I can't enforce any of this... OK, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Post by spokker on Dec 5, 2011 6:58:59 GMT -8
Fred actually managed to get a job out of it, though. Now he's living the high life in New York.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 5, 2011 13:01:35 GMT -8
Per the Source:
Hi everyone;
I’ve had to “not approve” a couple of comments that say this is the beginning of pre-revenue testing/service. It’s not. It’s a ramping up of the testing, as we stated. I’ll let everyone know when we know more about an opening date.
Steve Hymon Editor, The Source
We have to be careful in what we say.....as I know some posters kept insisting this is pre-revenue and the Source has to go out of its away to confirm, that no such announcement has been made.
Having said that, anybody seen the increased train activity? I heard there was a ton of activity yesterday!
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 5, 2011 14:48:19 GMT -8
I think it's safe to say that people are getting excited, even impatient and antsy, about the opening of the Expo Line. People don't have to be rail fans to see that SOMETHING is going on. The KPCC report I'm linking to avoids the forbidden words "pre-revenue," but people are going to start wondering. Metro has the right to be cautious, and they're undoubtedly worried about more poblems. But I also can't blame people for wanting to see more progress. It just shows that people will want to ride this thing.
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Post by jdrcrasher on Dec 5, 2011 16:26:29 GMT -8
But I also can't blame people for wanting to see more progress. It just shows that people will want to ride this thing. I'm telling you, I think this line is gonna do FAR better than Metro expected.
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Post by rajacobs on Dec 5, 2011 16:52:46 GMT -8
Perhaps the fervency of the board's politics is another indication. Some want it "noise invisible;" others want it far away from them(!); others demand that their news is the most accurate; others want it NOW! ...A lot of people really care that this thing goes in right however they interpret "right."
Bottom line, like it or not, whether patiently or impatiently ...we wait. (and in the meantime, write our emails to oppose Clint's crazy 15 foot walls!)
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Post by masonite on Dec 5, 2011 17:39:00 GMT -8
But I also can't blame people for wanting to see more progress. It just shows that people will want to ride this thing. I'm telling you, I think this line is gonna do FAR better than Metro expected. I expect the line to do well, but I think it will start relatively slow and then build up as people see the trains (although I suppose they are seeing the trains now). Also, our initial bus connections may have to be tweakeda and broadened, especially as we get to the last couple of stations in Phase I. The line will open during USC's semester. It may take till next academic year for the University to really advertise the line to potential parkers and get people to think about getting a Metro pass instead of a parking pass (we have completely missed that boat for this year). Finally, the 12 minute peak headways in Phase I will be a bit of a bummer. People are desperate for a line west of Downtown, but Expo doesn't necessarily go to all the places people want to go. People need to get comfortable with the bus connections and that will take some time. Ultimately, with Phase II, Crenshaw, and the Regional Connector, this line is going to be a total home run, but it may ramp up something along the lines of the Blue Line.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Dec 5, 2011 17:52:58 GMT -8
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 5, 2011 18:17:46 GMT -8
It may take till next academic year for the University to really advertise the line to potential parkers and get people to think about getting a Metro pass instead of a parking pass (we have completely missed that boat for this year). Finally, the 12 minute peak headways in Phase I will be a bit of a bummer. Thats key right here. People who bought parking passes will obviously continue to use them. There should be a nice bump next September when people can actually chose to not purchase a pass. And yes, 12 minute headways, for peak, is pretty bad. Almost insulting.
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Post by carter on Dec 5, 2011 20:27:04 GMT -8
It may take till next academic year for the University to really advertise the line to potential parkers and get people to think about getting a Metro pass instead of a parking pass (we have completely missed that boat for this year). Finally, the 12 minute peak headways in Phase I will be a bit of a bummer. Thats key right here. People who bought parking passes will obviously continue to use them. There should be a nice bump next September when people can actually chose to not purchase a pass. And yes, 12 minute headways, for peak, is pretty bad. Almost insulting. If I recall the decision went something like this: Metro wants Expo frequency to be an even multiple of the Blue Line. They don't have enough cars to do two-car trains every six minutes (20 cars per hour), so they're going with three-car trains every 12 minutes (15 cars per hour). Not 100% sure, though.
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 6, 2011 0:15:09 GMT -8
BTW, the front page for Friends for Expo www.friends4expo.org/index.htm states under the heading News: "Expo turned over Phase 1 to Metro for Pre-Revenue Operations" If there truly is a difference between "ramping up" testing and "pre-revenue," then that ought to be clarified, updated, revised or otherwise changed.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 6, 2011 7:26:45 GMT -8
BTW, the front page for Friends for Expo www.friends4expo.org/index.htm states under the heading News: "Expo turned over Phase 1 to Metro for Pre-Revenue Operations" If there truly is a difference between "ramping up" testing and "pre-revenue," then that ought to be clarified, updated, revised or otherwise changed. So does LA Streetsblog: la.streetsblog.org/2011/12/05/todays-headlines-890/See this is the problem, the Source is your most trusted information for everything Metro. With these misinformed headlines then people rise up and get angry with Metro who think they are wrong and the 3rd party websites are correct. Wrong. The Source has said repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, this is NOT pre-revenue operations. Plus, if it was pre-revenue operations, trains would be running until 1 am (right now they end at 6 pm). Until the Source announces pre-revenue..........it's not.
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Post by darrell on Dec 6, 2011 8:54:48 GMT -8
BTW, the front page for Friends for Expo www.friends4expo.org/index.htm states under the heading News: "Expo turned over Phase 1 to Metro for Pre-Revenue Operations" If there truly is a difference between "ramping up" testing and "pre-revenue," then that ought to be clarified, updated, revised or otherwise changed. You're right, we need some more accurate language. My headline quoted the Expo Authority announcement, which is technically correct - the line was turned over to Metro, who will ( at some point in time) begin pre-revenue testing - but misleading. What's the best citation from The Source?
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 6, 2011 11:19:40 GMT -8
Pre-revenue testing is indeed what is happening.
Are they running revenue runs? No.
Then everything before that is pre-revenue. The crenshaw line is currently undergoing pre-revenue engineering.
Simple english folks.
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Post by masonite on Dec 6, 2011 11:42:20 GMT -8
Pre-revenue testing is indeed what is happening. Are they running revenue runs? No. Then everything before that is pre-revenue. The crenshaw line is currently undergoing pre-revenue engineering. Simple english folks. Yes, technically, it is pre-revenue as there are no passengers and of course it is testing, but when many people think of pre-revenue testing, they think of the Stage 3 test stage where trains are running the exact schedule they would if it were operational with passengers. This pretty much lasts 6 weeks so we could be pretty confident in a starting date once this takes place. However, we aren't quite there yet, so that is where the confusion lies. Until we get to Stage 3, we certainly don't know when the starting date will be.
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Post by rajacobs on Dec 6, 2011 11:53:07 GMT -8
Good point. The euphemism that describes what we're waiting for is more accurately "Stage 3 testing."
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Post by rubbertoe on Dec 6, 2011 12:20:44 GMT -8
Metro is being intentionally vague about ever posting start of service dates, and with very good reason. If they post a proposed service start date, and miss it for whatever reason, the media will be all over it like a hobo on a ham sandwich. So the way for Metro to solve that particular problem is to simply not announce any dates until they are "absolutely certain" that the line can open on that date. Frustrating for us transit nerd types, but at least there will be fewer LA Times headlines like:
Expo Line opening line DELAYED AGAIN. End of the world imminent!
RT
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 6, 2011 12:53:23 GMT -8
Yes, technically, it is pre-revenue as there are no passengers and of course it is testing, but when many people think of pre-revenue testing, they think of the Stage 3 test stage where trains are running the exact schedule they would if it were operational with passengers. This pretty much lasts 6 weeks so we could be pretty confident in a starting date once this takes place. However, we aren't quite there yet, so that is where the confusion lies. Until we get to Stage 3, we certainly don't know when the starting date will be. Exactly, to avoid complications, people need to refer to it as "Stage 3 testing" which is very specific. "pre-revenue" is just way too broad, hence all the confusion. For Joe newspaper, any testing before revenue running is pre-revenue because that's what the word says. It reminds me of the streetcar debate we had a week or so ago. The term is way too broad, hence the confusion. Also, I thought S3 testing could be less than 6 weeks? 4-6 is what I remember was allowed. Mind you, I really dont see what value comes from a day over 10 days of S3 testing.
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Post by darrell on Dec 6, 2011 14:31:52 GMT -8
Then I'll stick with the more general "pre-revenue testing" on friends4expo.org, especially as I was quoting the Expo Authority.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2011 14:52:19 GMT -8
Clarification:
Testing is prerevenue operation only if all of the following are satisfied:
(1) Trains start running from 7th/Metro, not an intermediate location.
(2) Trains run all the way to the end.
(3) Trains run exactly on the same schedule as they will operate.
(4) Metro officially announces to the general public the start of the prerevenue operation with a news release a few days in advance and officially notifies the Federal Transit Authority that the prerevenue operation will begin.
Any testing that doesn't satisfy all four criteria above is not prerevenue operation. Prevenue operation is something that is very well-defined and it doesn't start until a virtually exact opening date is set for the line.
I believe the minimum FTA requirement is 5 weeks but it usually lasts for about six weeks.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2011 15:03:30 GMT -8
I am sorry for the expolinefan to go as well. But, for the record, neither I nor LAofAnaheim or someone else said anything inappropriate to him. He was simply offended that we didn't agree with a post of his regarding prerevenue operation and we kindly told so in our posts. He seemed unhappy with almost everyone on this board because he thought he wasn't being appreciated. It was also not appropriate for him to resort to name-calling. It was also extremely inappropriate the way he treated Damien Newton of LA Streetsblog while falsely accusing him for using his picture without asking him when they met on the street, for which he never apologized. We all have our differences and disagreements but we should never get hysteric and resort to name-calling or threats on an Internet message board or on the street on some transit issue, which is nothing but a hobby for us, especially if no one mistreated you to begin with.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 6, 2011 15:13:23 GMT -8
Clarification:Testing is prerevenue operation only if all of the following are satisfied:(1) Trains start running from 7th/Metro, not an intermediate location.
(2) Trains run all the way to the end.
(3) Trains run exactly on the same schedule as they will operate.
(4) Metro officially announces the start of the prerevenue operation with a news release a few days in advance and officially notifies the Federal Transit Authority that the prerevenue operation will begin.Any testing that doesn't satisfy all four criteria above is not prerevenue operation. Prevenue operation is something that is very well-defined and it doesn't start until a virtually exact opening date is set for the line.I believe the minimum FTA requirement is 5 weeks but it usually lasts for about six weeks. Correct! If people recall, the Eastside Gold Line had trains going from Sierra Madre Villa to Atlantic for 6 weeks for pre-revenue testing. They were not starting from Union Station to Atlantic during pre-revenue service. The Expo Line right now is running from Washington/Flower to La Cienega, it's not even going to 7th street yet! Thus, why people are calling this "pre-revenue" when the Source has clearly and very very clearly said this is NOT pre-revenue service, is beyond me. We're all eager for the start of the train, but we cannot spread misinformation. This is NOT pre-revenue service. The Source will tell us when that happens. Sorry if I have more faith in the Source for official announcements, but I think that's the most credible source for official news from Metro.
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Post by Gokhan on Dec 6, 2011 15:25:09 GMT -8
Sorry if I have more faith in the Source for official announcements, but I think that's the most credible source for official news from Metro. Actually the most credible source is the official Metro news release on the Metro Web site and The Source reposts this information shortly after. In addition, FTA requires Metro to announce to the general public the start of the prerevenue operation. Metro cannot hold the announcement if the start date for the prerevenue operation is set because they can't start the prerevenue operation unless they announce it to the general public and inform it. Therefore, yes, unless there is an official anouncement on the Metro Web site or on The Source Web site, it's definitely not prerevenue operation yet. This is one of the very few things for which an official news release is needed. With most transit issues, people on this board will somehow be ahead of the press releases, but this is one of the few things for which an official announcement is the only reliable source, for technical and legal reasons.
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Post by James Fujita on Dec 6, 2011 15:45:04 GMT -8
You know, looking at the most recent posts, which is to say page 178 of this topic, I see two trains of thought emerging: LAofAnaheim and Gokhan: It's not pre-revenue. Obey The Source. Pretty much everyone else: Technically, it is pre-revenue. We just need more accurate wording, such as "Stage 3" pre-revenue testing. = I'm thinking, they obviously are testing something, or else why have the trains out there at all? So, I'm with everybody else on this. This clearly isn't "stage 3 pre-revenue testing," so we are still several weeks out from the real, truly grand opening of the Expo Line. Possibly only as far as LaCienega. Honestly though, Metro does need to get more information out. Otherwise, we will keep getting second-hand sources telling us what they assume the date will be or ought to be. They don't have to worry about announcing a date and then missing it, because I think in the minds of many people, they already have missed a date, the unwritten date that they assumed it would be open.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Dec 6, 2011 16:17:20 GMT -8
Honestly though, Metro does need to get more information out. Otherwise, we will keep getting second-hand sources telling us what they assume the date will be or ought to be. How much more clearer can the Source be? From the Source Steve Hymon December 5, 2011 | 12:29 pm Hi everyone; I’ve had to “not approve” a couple of comments that say this is the beginning of pre-revenue testing/service. It’s not. It’s a ramping up of the testing, as we stated. I’ll let everyone know when we know more about an opening date. Steve Hymon Editor, The Source Posted on Monday, December 5thIf that's not clear enough, I don't know what is. Everything else is just heresay. BuildExpo, Streetsblog and Expolinefan need to be mindful of the language used for current Expo Line testing. It's NOT pre-revenue operations. Again, does anybody not remember how the Eastside Extension pre-revenue was done 2 years ago? Trains went from Sierra Madre to Atlantic during pre-revenue NOT Union Station to Atlantic.
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Post by simonla on Dec 6, 2011 17:33:07 GMT -8
Everyone is correct re: the pre-rev issue. But one thing to consider is that Metro's press release about train service ramping up had "pre-revenue" in the subject title (though it wasn't mentioned in the body). So, it's easy to see how folks got confused.
All this being said, I'm getting a little disillusioned. It's crazy to see the speed of the 405 project, while the Expo Line moves at a snail's pace. The Culver City station?? WTF! How is Metro not cracking the whip? They're going to start getting some major backlash if they don't some pedal to the medal on some of these projects, especially with the delays over Westside subway EIR, Regional connector EIR, and now Wilshire bus lanes. They had a lot of goodwill with the Gold and Orange Lines and I'm worried they're going to squander it.
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