outthere15
New Member
Take back the rails
Posts: 33
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Post by outthere15 on Dec 27, 2011 20:28:45 GMT -8
To keep this in perspective, we have been building complex public works projects since the Romans; building an aqueduct without modern soils knowledge was an incredible engineering task. They had to know the differential settlement for the system to work.
Fast forward 2,000 years and Expo is having a hard time integrating the 4 way switch which is in place in, one must assume, thousands of installations. An integrated nurse call system at a hospital is more complex, a high rise fire alarm with stairwell pressurization sequences are far more complex. This switch is a relatively simple electronic switch with many safeguards and should be able to commissioned with little fanfare.
The tunnel is issue is complicated by the fact that components may have be designed, plan checked, contracted for, fabricated and installed if Expo loses their side of the argument.
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Post by simonla on Dec 27, 2011 21:35:50 GMT -8
I totally agree. The inability to fix a switch is either utterly embarrassing or a sign that something really fishy is going on. Somehow we got to the moon over 40 years ago but in 2012 we can't get two trains to share a track.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 27, 2011 22:02:39 GMT -8
Why is the fire department allowed to interfere with something they aren't experts on? If the transit-tunnel building people say it's fine, it's fine. I'm not an expert on fire regulations or bureaucracy, but it's not the guys on the big red fire engine going out to the USC trench and saying "yup, this thing goes up like a candlestick." The LAFD includes its own Bureau of Fire Prevention and Public Safety which does apparently have authority to approve building safety permits and so forth. There's probably some regulation in there for rail trench/tunnels which they are following. Id trust them when it comes to homes, officers, restaurants etc... But how much experience do they have with light rail trenches?
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Post by metrocenter on Dec 28, 2011 7:36:42 GMT -8
Fast forward 2,000 years and Expo is having a hard time integrating the 4 way switch which is in place in, one must assume, thousands of installations. An integrated nurse call system at a hospital is more complex, a high rise fire alarm with stairwell pressurization sequences are far more complex. This switch is a relatively simple electronic switch with many safeguards and should be able to commissioned with little fanfare. Exactly. This problem is not as technically complex as they are making it sound. Yes, tight coordination is required for the system to operate correctly. But this isn't a moonshot, where conditions are unpredictable and tolerances extremely small. We're talking about trains on tracks. I read an article the other day about the woman responsible for coordinating relocating utilities beneath Sepulveda Blvd. They practically made her sound like a miracle worker. As a lowly underpaid software engineer I have had to solve far more complicated problems than either of these. The real kicker is the cost. I'm guessing these delays are costing the taxpayers tens of millions of dollars a month. At that price there are no excuses. They need to fix this now.
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outthere15
New Member
Take back the rails
Posts: 33
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Post by outthere15 on Dec 28, 2011 8:25:04 GMT -8
...... and the deafening silence that is feeding our mistrust. A simple explanation to an interest group like ours would go a long way to quiet the sinking feeling that we are experiencing ...... added to the fact that it is the Holiday season and a lot of us are hanging around the house without much else to do. Just saying.
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Post by JerardWright on Dec 28, 2011 10:45:45 GMT -8
USC trench consists of three closed segments and two open segments. Two of the closed segments are very short. The only long closed segment is the one between the Flower St trench portal and just east of Figueroa St, which is also a sharply curved segment. As seen in this screenshot below, the current ventilation system for the USC trench consists of fans at the end of the curved section at Flower and Exposition. This is going west, just before you come to Figueroa. It looks like there are also fans at the Flower St trench portal, but the video is too dark there to be sure... Imagine if this all Expo Line was a"cost effective open cut trench like some community advocates wanted" would have been in this same problem and delay the project and add even more costs.
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Post by jamesinclair on Dec 28, 2011 12:39:41 GMT -8
The real kicker is the cost. I'm guessing these delays are costing the taxpayers tens of millions of dollars a month. At that price there are no excuses. They need to fix this now. Not necessarily. Every day Expo gets delayed beyond the budgeted November 17 start day is a day metro saves on operating costs (wages, electricity, maintenance, security, etc) As we all know, capital monies flow like washington honey. Whats another $10m to a bad contractor? Operating monies? Thats always a problem. We've already seen increased night service on the other lines, most likely using expo budgeted money. But added night service wont use up the whole budget, meaning the rest is being used to fill holes somewhere. Didnt metro say they were cutting bus lines and then cancel it at the last minute a couple of months ago? I'd bet those bus lines are being paid for from the expo operations budget.
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Post by thanks4goingmetro on Dec 28, 2011 13:11:08 GMT -8
For the embarrassment this situation is to Expo Construction Authority they could fly over engineers out from Europe or Asia to fix this debilitating junction problem, or walk down stairs in the Metro building and ask how Metrolink gets all manner of junctions, switches, and grade separations completed on an active railroad.
I'm thinking Art Leahy and Rick Thorpe ought to take their disagreement to the Gold Line closely examine the trench under-crossing at Colorado Blvd in Pasadena and the subway bore under 1st St in Boyle Heights to get clues.
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Post by masonite on Dec 28, 2011 13:52:37 GMT -8
The real kicker is the cost. I'm guessing these delays are costing the taxpayers tens of millions of dollars a month. At that price there are no excuses. They need to fix this now. Not necessarily. Every day Expo gets delayed beyond the budgeted November 17 start day is a day metro saves on operating costs (wages, electricity, maintenance, security, etc) As we all know, capital monies flow like washington honey. Whats another $10m to a bad contractor? Operating monies? Thats always a problem. We've already seen increased night service on the other lines, most likely using expo budgeted money. But added night service wont use up the whole budget, meaning the rest is being used to fill holes somewhere. Didnt metro say they were cutting bus lines and then cancel it at the last minute a couple of months ago? I'd bet those bus lines are being paid for from the expo operations budget. I doubt it. Remember, they are still running test trains on Expo and that costs money and unlike when actual service starts, right now none of those test trains are getting any revenue from passengers.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Dec 28, 2011 17:44:10 GMT -8
Has anybody heard anything on when they planned to complete the 12-car overnight storage yard at Washington/Long Beach Ave? The last I was there a few weeks ago I didn't notice that anything had yet been done.
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Post by simonla on Dec 28, 2011 17:55:55 GMT -8
Shocking (sarcasm). Had to run an errand in CC today and drove by the site--looked like a war zone and I think I saw two, maybe three construction workers milling about where the commuter parking lot is supposed to be.
Where's Thorpe? Hawaii? St. Barths? Here's hoping he won't be heading up any big projects anytime soon.
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Post by rajacobs on Dec 28, 2011 18:09:37 GMT -8
There is a significant gap between what's been accomplished and our expectations, specifically regarding the trench and the Blue Line / Expo junction. However, since I walk past the Culver station daily, it isn't correct that only a few construction workers are "milling about." To the contrary, significant numbers of workers and equipment have been hard at work this week. I cannot be sure what's been accomplished. But work is underway there.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 3, 2012 15:15:43 GMT -8
I received the following communication today from the Expo Construction Authority in response to some comments I made to them:
"The Expo Authority has turned the system over to Metro for Pre-Revenue Operations. Once Metro determines that the system is safe to operate, the line will open to the public. We anticipate an opening to the La Cienega/Jefferson station early this year, but Metro, not Expo, will determine the actual opening date since they will be operating the line." Thus, it's clear that from the Construction Authority's viewpoint, the responsibility for communication to the public now lies in the hands of Metro!
I read that Expo has cleared the system for "Pre-revenue Operation." The question of when to begin "Stage III Pre-revenue Testing" is now for Metro to determine.
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 3, 2012 15:41:35 GMT -8
I read that Expo has cleared the system for "Pre-revenue Operation." The question of when to begin "Stage III Pre-revenue Testing" is in now for Metro to determine. I don't think that's the case. Stage II isn't quite completed yet and certainly the line is neither certified nor ready for Stage III. For example there is no way they can start Stage III before the junction is working. It's also important to realize that it's Metro's task to do Stage II, not Expo's. Expo is only responsible for Stage I, and Stage II usually doesn't start until substantial completion (project handover). In the case of Expo Phase 1, since the project was delayed so much, Metro agreed to start Stage II before substantial completion and before the project was handed over to them. In fact, the project was handed over to them even before the substantial completion, to complicate the matters even more. The confusion arises because Expo and Metro both jumped the gun and they made the infamous incorrect statement about the prerevenue operation (Stage III) -- "the line is now handed over to Metro for prerevenue operation" -- before the line was not nearly ready for it. Sure, it could be ready any time, but there is a good chance that Stage III (= prerevenue operation) won't start for many months from now until they figure out the junction and USC trench, possibly delaying the opening still for many months.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 3, 2012 15:48:29 GMT -8
I'm waiting with baited breath to see how this drama unfolds... (and ride the train!)
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Post by bobdavis on Jan 3, 2012 19:01:51 GMT -8
Regarding fire dept. considerations: On a website devoted to (among other things) pedestrian safety, someone remarked that many urban intersections are wider that one might expect (and thus expose pedestrians to auto traffic more than is desirable) because the local fire dept. has to be able to route large fire engines onto any street, and they have authority to determine the configuration of intersections.
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Post by jamesinclair on Jan 3, 2012 21:31:29 GMT -8
Regarding fire dept. considerations: On a website devoted to (among other things) pedestrian safety, someone remarked that many urban intersections are wider that one might expect (and thus expose pedestrians to auto traffic more than is desirable) because the local fire dept. has to be able to route large fire engines onto any street, and they have authority to determine the configuration of intersections. Something like that, yes. Fire departments frequently say "This road must be x feet wide, and the turning radius must be y so that our tripple-cab-double-long-deluxe engine can make it by with no delay" So every street must be engineered to these ridiculous standards....instead of, you know, buying a small truck.
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Post by metrocenter on Jan 4, 2012 9:07:08 GMT -8
The real kicker is the cost. I'm guessing these delays are costing the taxpayers tens of millions of dollars a month. At that price there are no excuses. They need to fix this now. Not necessarily. Every day Expo gets delayed beyond the budgeted November 17 start day is a day metro saves on operating costs (wages, electricity, maintenance, security, etc). /-Delayed response-/ Yes, Metro will "save" on operating costs. But we could have done that and not spent any money (by not building the project). This project has zero value to the public until the trains start running. To date, we the taxpayers have dropped nearly a billion dollars for a transit line, and so far we have nothing of value to show for it. We paid for a working train, not pretty but dead infrastructure. So what do we have? A built-up right of way with stations, that just sits there, its physical assets aging in the weather and urban environment, requiring police protection from vandals. A monument to Metro/Expo/whoever's inability to complete a project on time and within budget.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 4, 2012 10:04:40 GMT -8
It troubled me the other day when stopped by the light at La Cienega, westbound on Jefferson, I spied the Metro engineer, of the train parked at the station, walk in front of me ostensibly to grab a cup at the Starbuck's. ...Let's get on with it!
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Post by rubbertoe on Jan 4, 2012 13:24:57 GMT -8
It's almost time to start up a new poll: On what day will Metro come clean and finally tell us what the real problem is with getting the Expo line up and running?
RT
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Post by bzcat on Jan 4, 2012 14:23:10 GMT -8
I have tickets to a concert at Hollywood Bowl in May. It would be nice if I can ride Expo to Downtown by that time. I'm not holding my breath though...
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 4, 2012 14:27:56 GMT -8
I think the main problems are well-known: (1) ATP at the junction still not working and (2) certification of the USC-trench ventilation fans. In addition, they might still have some problems with signals and train controls along the line.
They had told at one point that the testing is extremely expensive. I see dozens of people involved in train testing on the test trains. On top of that, they spend money coordinating the tests with third parties. I think testing is significantly more expensive than revenue operation.
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Post by simonla on Jan 4, 2012 15:09:05 GMT -8
So will anybody be at the Board meeting tomorrow? Anyone be able to get audio?
Unrelated: I wonder if Antonio is getting angry??
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Post by roadtrainer on Jan 4, 2012 22:05:54 GMT -8
quote :jamesinclair Fire departments frequently say "This road must be x feet wide, and the turning radius must be y so that our triple-cab-double-long-deluxe engine can make it by with no delay" So every street must be engineered to these ridiculous standards....instead of, you know, buying a small truck. [/quote] Well James, in your frustration you put the blame on our national Hero's and there are the cause the Expo-line is not up and running! Well they must have the best equipment to get the job done, and they risk their lives to put fires out and went into the twin towers to never return. And your going to say if they didn't have bigger equipment we have our train now. Hey intersections are made so large that big rigs and school buses and Metro buses can cross safely, along with idiots who cut them off with every chance they get. I take it personal that you guys in this blog are attacking the L.A.F.D.! Shame on you!![/b] The Roadtrainer
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Post by Alexis Kasperavičius on Jan 5, 2012 11:20:12 GMT -8
Oh relax. It's true, roads and pretty much everything is bigger in America - making us all the fattest folks in the world!
All due to federal and state mandates that just require the taxpayer and the private sector to pony up. This "let's plan for the worst scenario" is getting old.
I'll tell ya, it all boils down to punitive damages. Cities and states all over the US are making us so "safe" just to cover their ass against lawsuits and outrageous damage claims. This only exists in America - punitive damage is expressly illegal in Europe and elsewhere - the idea that someone could profit from injury is insanity as far as they're concerned.
So here we have more taxpayer dollars being spent on the Expo line to cover every possible scenario. Adding millions of dollars in extra equipment, lights, crossings, fans, testing, blah blah blah - and construction costs - and delays - just so Metro can cover their ass if something happens.
It's vicious cycle and if you look at insurance stats here and in Europe they have fewer maiming accidents per capita than we do - and the spread is growing.
I don't think it's working - and this is getting expensive. What's the sales tax rate again?
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Post by simonla on Jan 5, 2012 12:13:01 GMT -8
OK, back to the issue at hand. Will anyone be at today's Expo board meeting? Or be able to provide audio?
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Post by Gokhan on Jan 5, 2012 15:45:15 GMT -8
Today, at the Expo board meeting, for the first time, a thorough discussion of what has been going on was made. There is apparently no problem with the USC-trench ventilation fans, as it was never mentioned. The problem was with the Expo - Blue junction. The automatic train protection (ATP) at the junction has been working fine with the newer Siemens P2000 trains but the system wasn't picking up the old Nippon - Sharyo trains used on the Blue Line. Last night they made a breakthrough and they believe that now they have solved the problem. They will implement the software change within a week, and the line will be handed over to Metro for prerevenue operations and Metro will then start the prerevenue operations in about a couple of weeks from now. Hopefully the prerevenue operation will take less than three months and they will open the line as early as in March. Meanwhile, they will now immediately start manually operating the Expo Line trains through the manually controlled junction into the 7th/Metro Station for the first time.You can listen to the board audio here. At the end, there is the project-status update and after that CEO Rick Thorpe explains what is going on with the testing during his CEO comments: Expo board meeting 2012/01/05
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Post by simonla on Jan 5, 2012 16:13:16 GMT -8
Thank you, Gokhan. This is what's important and relevant.
OK, well, we're all skeptical but this does sound like good news.
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Post by rajacobs on Jan 5, 2012 17:16:14 GMT -8
Finally some light at the end of the trench ...errr, tunnel!
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Post by John Ryan on Jan 5, 2012 21:12:56 GMT -8
I am guessing this March date is for La Cienega. If this is so, any ideas when it will open to Culver City?
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