|
Post by Gokhan on May 1, 2012 11:39:28 GMT -8
Ridership is still very light today, although probably more ridership today than yesterday.
From La Cienega to Vermont, it took 13:52, which is just about the same as the scheduled time (14 minutes). It was slower than yesterday because we started on the wrong track at La Cienega and also got caught at red light at Normandie.
|
|
|
Post by rubbertoe on May 1, 2012 12:09:49 GMT -8
Gokhan I'm curious, since it looks like you are the first regular Expo rider that we have on the board. Whats your total commute time, including walking on each end?
RT
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on May 1, 2012 12:25:52 GMT -8
Gokhan I'm curious, since it looks like you are the first regular Expo rider that we have on the board. Whats your total commute time, including walking on each end? RT It's about 40 minutes, including driving to the station (12+ minutes), waiting for the train (6 minutes), riding the train (14 minutes), and walking to work from the station (6 minutes). I am guessing when the Culver City Station opens, it would take me about the same time with a Blue Bus connection. Driving to work from Palms to USC takes about 30 minutes on the average.
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on May 1, 2012 14:49:18 GMT -8
Looking at the Expo Park / USC Station around 3:30 pm, trains are carrying perhaps about 100 passengers. This puts the ridership around 10,000. Hopefully this will triple in a few months and Phase 1 will meet its predicted ridership of 27,000. If you build it, people will ride it!
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on May 1, 2012 14:54:51 GMT -8
Looking at the Expo Park / USC Station around 3:30 pm, trains are carrying perhaps about 100 passengers. This puts the ridership around 10,000. Hopefully this will triple in a few months and Phase 1 will meet its predicted ridership of 27,000. If you build it, people will ride it! I wouldn't put today's ridership as a strong projection of future statistics. Keep in mind - today is May Day, with heavily advertised rallies all over downtown. Some people are taking the Expo Line to avoid the delays. Hopefully, they'll retain and stay on board on future days. I recall seeing how packed the Red/Purple Lines were during the days of the Laker championship rallies. Obviously, those were one-off days. The true test is a normal workday like yesterday and tomorrow. Today, I would not use as a baseline for ridership. Though I hope to be wrong...........
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on May 1, 2012 15:02:16 GMT -8
I was getting excited but LAofAnaheim is probably right. Let's see what ridership looks like in a few days. But it's still very encouraging.
|
|
|
Post by bzcat on May 1, 2012 15:46:16 GMT -8
Ridership is not going to lift substantially until the Culver City station opens and the line is connected by bus to destinations to the west. I expect the line to reach 20,000 riders by the end of September after UCLA and USC both start the new academic year. There is substantial number of USC students living in Palms but they are not going to take the Expo line unless there is an easy and frequent bus connection (BBB12 and Rapid 12).
I would also advise BBB to begin a "Rapid 5" service ASAP that will provide limited stop service from Mid Town Santa Monica and Century City to Expo line.
Also, a key test will be how Metro will handle 30,000+ boardings on the first USC home game on 9/1/2012 against Hawaii.
|
|
|
Post by davebowman on May 1, 2012 16:21:45 GMT -8
I may actually consider going to a USC football game for the first time in years now that I won't have to deal with the H-E-double-hockey-sticks of trying to park near the campus on gameday. I wonder how early you would have to get to the Venice/Robertson station to get a parking spot? Is it too much to expect that the Big Blue Bus would run gameday shuttles from Santa Monica to Venice/Robertson station, a la the Hollywood Bowl shuttles?
Plan B would be driving to the LA Convention Center and getting the SB Expo train at Pico Station, but I have the feeling a lot of people will figure that out, too.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on May 1, 2012 16:31:53 GMT -8
I may actually consider going to a USC football game for the first time in years now that I won't have to deal with the H-E-double-hockey-sticks of trying to park near the campus on gameday. I wonder how early you would have to get to the Venice/Robertson station to get a parking spot? Is it too much to expect that the Big Blue Bus would run gameday shuttles from Santa Monica to Venice/Robertson station, a la the Hollywood Bowl shuttles? Plan B would be driving to the LA Convention Center and getting the SB Expo train at Pico Station, but I have the feeling a lot of people will figure that out, too. The Big Blue Bus Route #5 runs on weekends. And I think route 12 does as well. There are plenty of options to get to Venice/Robertson.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on May 1, 2012 16:55:54 GMT -8
IINM 20 minute headways after 8pm is also the blue line headway. It's only at 10 minutes now because of the temporary increase to 10 minutes on all of the lines. Actually for the Expo Line, it's much worse than that. It's 20-minute headways after 6:29 pm. It's really bad. A lot of people don't get off work until 7 pm. Deal breaker for a lot of people. Not only that, but this line is serving LA Live, Staples Center, Galen Center, and the Sports Arena and a lot of events don't start until 7:30 so another hour of 12 minute headways is really needed. The traffic going East is still horrible at 7:00 p.m.
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on May 1, 2012 22:12:31 GMT -8
Actually for the Expo Line, it's much worse than that. It's 20-minute headways after 6:29 pm. It's really bad. A lot of people don't get off work until 7 pm. Deal breaker for a lot of people. Not only that, but this line is serving LA Live, Staples Center, Galen Center, and the Sports Arena and a lot of events don't start until 7:30 so another hour of 12 minute headways is really needed. The traffic going East is still horrible at 7:00 p.m. 12 minute headways should be reserved for after midnight. Should be every 5-6 minutes for the rest of the day.
|
|
|
Post by ieko on May 2, 2012 0:15:37 GMT -8
Not only that, but this line is serving LA Live, Staples Center, Galen Center, and the Sports Arena and a lot of events don't start until 7:30 so another hour of 12 minute headways is really needed. The traffic going East is still horrible at 7:00 p.m. 12 minute headways should be reserved for after midnight. Should be every 5-6 minutes for the rest of the day. No, it shouldn't be raised until the line begins to find its audience, until then you'd just be wasting money on service that could be put elsewhere. 12 minutes is more than adequate.
|
|
|
Post by bzcat on May 2, 2012 10:52:34 GMT -8
I may actually consider going to a USC football game for the first time in years now that I won't have to deal with the H-E-double-hockey-sticks of trying to park near the campus on gameday. I wonder how early you would have to get to the Venice/Robertson station to get a parking spot? Is it too much to expect that the Big Blue Bus would run gameday shuttles from Santa Monica to Venice/Robertson station, a la the Hollywood Bowl shuttles? Plan B would be driving to the LA Convention Center and getting the SB Expo train at Pico Station, but I have the feeling a lot of people will figure that out, too. You will be able to take the regular Big Blue Bus #5 to Venice/Robertson if you live in Midtown or Uptown Santa Monica. If you live close to Downtown, you can take Metro 733 to Venice/Robertson. If you live within walking distance to Pico, you can take Big Blue Bus #7 to Westwood Blvd and transfer to #12 or Rapid 12 to Venice/Robertson.
|
|
|
Post by carter on May 2, 2012 11:05:44 GMT -8
I may actually consider going to a USC football game for the first time in years now that I won't have to deal with the H-E-double-hockey-sticks of trying to park near the campus on gameday. I wonder how early you would have to get to the Venice/Robertson station to get a parking spot? Is it too much to expect that the Big Blue Bus would run gameday shuttles from Santa Monica to Venice/Robertson station, a la the Hollywood Bowl shuttles? Plan B would be driving to the LA Convention Center and getting the SB Expo train at Pico Station, but I have the feeling a lot of people will figure that out, too. You will be able to take the regular Big Blue Bus #5 to Venice/Robertson if you live in Midtown or Uptown Santa Monica. If you live close to Downtown, you can take Metro 733 to Venice/Robertson. If you live within walking distance to Pico, you can take Big Blue Bus #7 to Westwood Blvd and transfer to #12 or Rapid 12 to Venice/Robertson. But if you live close enough to catch a #5, you probably are best off just walking another two blocks to Santa Monica Blvd to catch a #10 (that is, if you're going downtown).
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on May 2, 2012 12:43:52 GMT -8
I rode the 9 pm Expo train back home yesterday and rode it this morning as well. This morning it was 1 minute faster than the schedule. The ridership is still very light but the parking structure is getting more full -- hopefully by Expo riders and not opportunists who park there and go somewhere else. Last night there were probably around 50 people on the two-car train. It took about 4 minutes longer than the scheduled time because the operator was very timid. He missed all the green lights. The ATP on the 1989 Nippon Sharyo also malfunctioned at Crenshaw and we had several stop-and-goes until the system was reset and we were able to pull to the platform. Interestingly, we had to wait for a police car with sirens and lights on at Crenshaw as well. The most notable part of the ride last night was that at Crenshaw Station some guy on the platform was trying to say something to the operator. He eventually got on and knocked on the operator door, and he asked him "Do you stop at Farmdale?" When the operator told him no, he immediately got off and didn't take the train. Farmdale Station -- the most highly anticipated station on the Expo Line!
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on May 2, 2012 18:27:30 GMT -8
Very light ridership on the Expo Line continues. It seems to be around 60 people per train -- 7,000 boardings per day. It took 24 minutes from 7th/Metro to La Cienega, 2 minutes faster than the schedule. It's sometimes very slow if it starts missing the green lights.
I also noticed how bad the Breda trains are in comparison to both the Nippon Sharyo and Siemens trains (which are comparable to each other). The ACs on the Bredas are awfully noisy and the overall design is inferior. I am glad they canceled the Breda contract.
It's great to see the Metro Rail network growing and more Los Angeles people connecting.
|
|
|
Post by thedessie on May 2, 2012 19:46:23 GMT -8
I think we are going to find the light ridership will continue until the problem of being off schedule going into downtown is solved. I work in an office that has been really excited about the opening of Expo, and almost everyone has already gone back to their cars. People who took Expo this week have reported delays of 5 - 10 min from La Cienega to 7th/Metro.
I will still take Expo, but I was really disappointed that the schedule into downtown wasn't even close to correct. I was in 8m late to 7th/Metro, causing me to miss my Metrolink connection.
The perception of slowness, not adhering to schedule, and to a lesser extent, not having new and clean cars is causing bad word of mouth. (I heard several complaints on the ride in this morning about the stench on the car. It WAS awful.)
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on May 2, 2012 19:51:49 GMT -8
I think we are going to find the light ridership will continue until the problem of being off schedule going into downtown is solved. I work in an office that has been really excited about the opening of Expo, and almost everyone has already gone back to their cars. People who took Expo this week have reported delays of 5 - 10 min from La Cienega to 7th/Metro. I'm not sure that these people were cut out for public transit in LA. Cars would probably suit them better as one never has 5 or 10 minute delays in a car.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on May 2, 2012 19:55:36 GMT -8
Very light ridership on the Expo Line continues. It seems to be around 60 people per train -- 7,000 boardings per day. It took 24 minutes from 7th/Metro to La Cienega, 2 minutes faster than the schedule. It's sometimes very slow if it starts missing the green lights. I also noticed how bad the Breda trains are in comparison to both the Nippon Sharyo and Siemens trains (which are comparable to each other). The ACs on the Bredas are awfully noisy and the overall design is inferior. I am glad they canceled the Breda contract. It's great to see the Metro Rail network growing and more Los Angeles people connecting. Thanks for the reports! Interesting though that what you characterize as "very light" seems very promising to me. It's probably double what the gold line East LA had several months after opening. It's going to take people some time to start adjusting their commutes, but I wouldn't be surprised to see double this amount in just a few months.
|
|
|
Post by bluelineshawn on May 2, 2012 20:19:30 GMT -8
See you guys there Did you make it? I didn't meet you.
|
|
|
Post by jamesinclair on May 2, 2012 21:12:13 GMT -8
No, it shouldn't be raised until the line begins to find its audience, until then you'd just be wasting money on service that could be put elsewhere. 12 minutes is more than adequate. Thats not how you build ridership. if service sucks, people dont ride. You invest in future ridership by making service attractive now. If headways are too long, people get discourages, and spread bad word of mouth about expo. If trains come every 5 minutes, people say at dinner "I love expo, I never have to wait, theres always a train coming". Its not financially prudent if youre only looking at day to day ridership. Its financially prudent if youre building ridership and want more people in the future. Its called investing in something.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on May 2, 2012 22:38:14 GMT -8
Thats not how you build ridership. if service sucks, people dont ride. You invest in future ridership by making service attractive now. If headways are too long, people get discourages, and spread bad word of mouth about expo. If trains come every 5 minutes, people say at dinner "I love expo, I never have to wait, theres always a train coming". Its not financially prudent if youre only looking at day to day ridership. Its financially prudent if youre building ridership and want more people in the future. Its called investing in something. Well, until we get the RC going, its not going to happen. 12 minutes is the best scenario all day, which I would suppport. After experiencing 6 minute "headways" over the weekend, only to have the train crawl between USC/Expo Park to 7th street/Metro for over 20 minutes itself, the 6 minutes is not sustainable. BTW, Metro has done 10 minute all night service on the Red, Purple and Blue Lines, which are working phenomenally well. Metro will do it, with the funding availability and demand. Let's get Expo to 12 min service first and fix Flower Street!
|
|
|
Post by bobdavis on May 2, 2012 22:49:03 GMT -8
I think Mr. Sinclair has a point. If there's one thing that's always in short supply, it's patiences. Americans don't like to wait. I once saw a "vanity plate" on a car in San Clemente: H8 2 W8 (Hate to wait) After spending bushels of money to build the line, don't go cheap on actual service. Regarding the cars--I was somewhat surprised to see the Expo trains were mostly the 100-series, built between 1989 and 1996. The Bredas seem to all be on the Gold Line now, for better or for worse (I think they're OK, but some electric railway fans have nothing good to say about them). After over 50 years with no local rail service at all, we San Gabriel Valley natives aren't fussy.
|
|
|
Post by ieko on May 2, 2012 23:45:12 GMT -8
See you guys there Did you make it? I didn't meet you. Around 4am I realized I had too much to do so I just went to bed
|
|
|
Post by Gokhan on May 3, 2012 0:01:58 GMT -8
I think the ridership will develop over time. The biggest inertia is people's habits (of driving).
As for being 5 minutes off schedule, I would factor it into the commute and take the train before next time.
As for the stench, that would be some homeless person riding the train at that time.
My biggest concern is bus connections. The bus headways are very long in the Westside and I don't think the Blue Bus even runs after 6 or 7 pm on the lines it connects with Expo. It would have been really great if we had streetcar service on important corridors (National, Venice, etc.) instead of the lousy bus service.
Another good solution is, instead of operating large buses with long headways, small buses or even large vans with short headways (like 10 minutes). That would be much more efficient. 30-minute bus headways are deal breaker for most people.
|
|
|
Post by spokker on May 3, 2012 2:16:05 GMT -8
What's the general vibe about gentrification around rail lines around here? Here's an example specific to Expo: www.healthycal.org/archives/7285For those that lean left, is there a conflict of ideologies here? On one hand, those who lean left generally wish to upgrade public transportation infrastructure through light rail and subway development. They may even tout economic development as a benefit of passenger rail infrastructure to boost support. I imagine part of that economic development is increased property values, which could lead to increased rents. On the other hand, a left-leaning person cares about the poor (or so the story goes. I don't always believe that) and is more likely than others to support affordable housing and rent control and things like that. If the light rail does increase property values, there is that risk that the poor will be pushed out. So if you care about both issues, I'd love to hear your take. Unless I'm mistaken and you guys are all conservative or something. Personally, I fancy myself as more of a libertarian with a train fetish and all the hypocrisies that go with it.
|
|
|
Post by wad on May 3, 2012 2:58:33 GMT -8
Another good solution is, instead of operating large buses with long headways, small buses or even large vans with short headways (like 10 minutes). That would be much more efficient. 30-minute bus headways are deal breaker for most people. The reason why agencies don't do this is because 3/4 of their operating costs are payroll. The drivers are a significant chunk of it, and since transit will lose money no matter what, you won't see smaller buses. As for why don't we pay drivers less? Collective bargaining agreements. Foothill Transit tried that for many years, now both of their yards are union.
|
|
|
Post by LAofAnaheim on May 3, 2012 7:22:18 GMT -8
I think we are going to find the light ridership will continue until the problem of being off schedule going into downtown is solved. I work in an office that has been really excited about the opening of Expo, and almost everyone has already gone back to their cars. People who took Expo this week have reported delays of 5 - 10 min from La Cienega to 7th/Metro. I'm sure other factors come into play why people return to driving. 1) Do they get subsidized parking from work? 2) If looking at time comparisons door-door, a car wins (mostly because of cheap, easy and available underground parking at destination). In other cities, parking at your destination may not either exist or is priced > $50/day. In LA, we have an oversupply of parking (44% of downtown space is devoted to asphalt). Until parking becomes inconvenient, then the train will always be in competition of the car.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on May 3, 2012 8:40:23 GMT -8
What's the general vibe about gentrification around rail lines around here? Here's an example specific to Expo: www.healthycal.org/archives/7285For those that lean left, is there a conflict of ideologies here? On one hand, those who lean left generally wish to upgrade public transportation infrastructure through light rail and subway development. They may even tout economic development as a benefit of passenger rail infrastructure to boost support. I imagine part of that economic development is increased property values, which could lead to increased rents. On the other hand, a left-leaning person cares about the poor (or so the story goes. I don't always believe that) and is more likely than others to support affordable housing and rent control and things like that. If the light rail does increase property values, there is that risk that the poor will be pushed out. So if you care about both issues, I'd love to hear your take. Unless I'm mistaken and you guys are all conservative or something. Personally, I fancy myself as more of a libertarian with a train fetish and all the hypocrisies that go with it. I consider myself moderately progressive, but am generally against rent control as it is very inefficient and has a lot of unwanted consequences. Some gentrification near the rail lines will occur, but even now everyone talks about that around the Red Line, but go walk around Westlake and the stations along Vermont. It is still very very poor. Long term, I do expect some more gentrification in the city, which will be unsettling to some, but I think it is a very good thing. People are moving back to the city in small numbers and exurbs and long distance suburbs are losing their appeal, especially among the young.
|
|
|
Post by masonite on May 3, 2012 8:57:19 GMT -8
No, it shouldn't be raised until the line begins to find its audience, until then you'd just be wasting money on service that could be put elsewhere. 12 minutes is more than adequate. Thats not how you build ridership. if service sucks, people dont ride. You invest in future ridership by making service attractive now. If headways are too long, people get discourages, and spread bad word of mouth about expo. If trains come every 5 minutes, people say at dinner "I love expo, I never have to wait, theres always a train coming". Its not financially prudent if youre only looking at day to day ridership. Its financially prudent if youre building ridership and want more people in the future. Its called investing in something. While I am supportive of shorter headways, you need to realize a few things. One - Metro loses money on providing service and there are limited funds overall. They cut bus service and are in trouble with the FTA on doing so. They have been able to shorten headways on other lines, but there are limits to this and it is very controversial to cut bus service and increase rail service. We have probably reached the limit of doing this for now. It is easy to stammer for more service, but resources have to come from somewhere Two - Metro has limited light rail cars and cannot run additional service without cutting other more successful lines. Three - The junction and turnaround are currently maxed out. To increase Expo service you'd have to cut Blue Line service which makes no sense. Overall, people are getting a first hand education on the troubles with running branched or merged service on light rail lines, especially street running light rail. It is turning out to be a giant headache that has somehow surprised some people. Not only the construction, but the operation. The question is what happens with Expo Phase II. They will have the cars to operate more service, but that junction and turn around will still be a major problem. I'm not sure they can go to 6 minute service then. The connector won't be ready for years after Phase II is completed.
|
|