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Post by bluelineshawn on May 26, 2009 19:55:35 GMT -8
From my experience posting on international forums most people internationally use the generic term "Metro" to refer to grade-separated rapid transit. They usually call light rail - ours included - trams and not Metro/rapid transit. But I do think that our light rail is much more rapid than they are used to. But that's because we have more grade separations than they are used to. Our light rail goes fast, goes a long distance, and is fairly grade separated. Very much equivalent to a Stadtbahn in Europe.
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Post by Gokhan on May 26, 2009 21:07:24 GMT -8
I drove along the right-of-way today and I was very impressed that for the first time since this project began I personally noticed lots of people working on the project. There were crews block after block, mostly sub-contractors working on Expo particularly from the Fig trench to Crenshaw. Based on bodies on the ground I think that the eleven month gap is going to shrink pretty quick. Finally, We certainly all hope so! But I have strong doubts that this line could be done in less than two years. There is a lot to do before it can open. We will watch the needle on the progress dial. It needs to reach 5% per month if the line is to be finished in one year. It has consistently been 2.5% per month; so, I doubt it can go that high.
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Post by Gokhan on May 26, 2009 21:15:34 GMT -8
From my experience posting on international forums most people internationally use the generic term "Metro" to refer to grade-separated rapid transit. They usually call light rail - ours included - trams and not Metro/rapid transit. But I do think that our light rail is much more rapid than they are used to. But that's because we have more grade separations than they are used to. Our light rail goes fast, goes a long distance, and is fairly grade separated. Very much equivalent to a Stadtbahn in Europe. I agree. Although, "metro" is apparently being used for trams as well in Europe. But, as you say, metro there is being used more for rapid transit, which is by definition fully grade-separated rail with frequent and high-capacity trains. Heavy rail only refers to rapid transit in North America. So, use it with caution. It refers to literally heavy trains elsewhere in the world, that is freight rail like UP and BNSF and passenger rail like Metrolink and Amtrak. So, as far as light-rail goes, there will never be a standard definition I guess. It can refer to anything from a streetcar to a rapid-transit line like the Metro Green Line. Well, there is a lot of diversity in the world of public transit.
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Post by masonite on May 26, 2009 21:39:51 GMT -8
I drove along the right-of-way today and I was very impressed that for the first time since this project began I personally noticed lots of people working on the project. There were crews block after block, mostly sub-contractors working on Expo particularly from the Fig trench to Crenshaw. Based on bodies on the ground I think that the eleven month gap is going to shrink pretty quick. Finally, Good to see that they may be concentrating on the easier segment to Crenshaw instead the problem plagued segment to the West. Still don't see why they can't open to Crenshaw in a little over a year.
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Post by masonite on May 26, 2009 21:50:05 GMT -8
I love your unbiased reporting. There is that almost universal light rail bias again. I don't get the infatuation. While there may be more to look out the windows while actually traveling on light rail, I find it annoying to have to wait at stop lights and having to stop and start in between stations on at grade sections. A subway is much smoother. Also, the subway stations are beautiful and our light rail stations are generally not. In fact a lot of them are quite lacking including pretty much all the Green Line and most of the Gold and Blue lines as well. Also, waiting at these light rail stations is almost always not pleasant as traffic is rushing close by and you are exposed to the elements. Finally, as I keep pointing out heavy rail doesn't always have to be all below grade as Washington and San Francisco are key examples.
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Post by darrell on May 26, 2009 21:56:05 GMT -8
The point: Metro didn't suspend all heavy rail construction. Never said they did. What I wrote was, Then MTA essentially ran out of money in early 1998 and suspended the Pasadena Blue Line LRT and Eastside Red Line subway.
New studies in 1998-2001 looked at what to do instead of the planned Red Line extensions on the Eastside, Westside (to Pico-San Vicente), and in the Valley (North Holllywood to Van Nuys under the Chandler right-of-way). What's even shorter than the already-short first segment to 1st & Indiana? And how would Metro have paid for it without local Prop. A and C matching funds? Not really. It was one of the initial list of every possible alternative, but not taken seriously and quickly discarded. It's one thing to read old reports, another to have been in the meetings. Again, what's even shorter than the already-short extension to Pico-San Vicente, that didn't go in the Wilshire methane gas zone? (Or in the Crenshaw-Olympic hydrogen sulfide zone, which may preclude any Crenshaw tunnel north of Expo.) Exactly what I was referring to about Curitiba and Riordan's "subway train on rubber tires" quote. But the list was quickly shortened to BRT on Expo, Wilshire, Eastside, and Chandler, and LRT on Expo and Eastside. LRT won on the latter two for higher speed and capacity and popular support. First, Metrocenter has it right about what year's dollars are being compared. The 2/24/2000 Mid-City/Westside Major Investment Study projected a total cost for Exposition LRT to Santa Monica (Alternative 3a) of $589 million in 1999 dollars. Second, light rail even at $100+ million/mile is still a small fraction of subway costs at $500+ million/mile. As another Orange Line busway. Which is irrelevant. Are you now supporting elevated, after criticizing it at La Brea? A false straw-man, which sounds disturbingly like arguments by rail critics Wendell Cox and Randall O'Toole. From the front page of friends4expo.org: alternative to Los Angeles' world-record traffic Curitiba BRT became Metro Rapid buses on L.A. boulevards. A statement with no support whatsoever, that flies in the face of so many cities choosing mostly-at-grade LRT because it is more cost-effective. Which make your following statements irrelevant. Not even true for year-of-expenditure, let alone an apples-to-apples comparison of 2008 dollars. You can't get to Century City for that. Try Fairfax, maybe La Cienega. Expo all the way to Santa Monica is a lot more useful. You know, Damien, this debate is really rather silly. L.A.'s rail transit priorities for the next few decades were established by Measure R, rooted in projects already in planning or under construction over the last decade.
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Post by darrell on May 28, 2009 9:41:50 GMT -8
Construction updates I noticed yesterday:
* The first row of tall rebars for the eastern abutment of the Jefferson-Ballona Creek bridge are sticking up from its foundation east of the Jefferson-National intersection.
* Both rebar cages and forms for one bridge column are up on the west side of La Brea.
* Rail sections and wood ties for special trackwork (crossovers, etc.) are now piled on the right-of-way west of the long lengths of welded rail east of La Brea.
* Rebars are visible for the final retaining walls along the western ramp to the underpass, east of Trousdale.
* At least two CIDH piles are visible from Flower Street for the south abutment of the Flower bridge over the 110 freeway.
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Post by metrocenter on May 28, 2009 11:23:18 GMT -8
You know, Damien, this debate is really rather silly. L.A.'s rail transit priorities for the next few decades were established by Measure R, rooted in projects already in planning or under construction over the last decade. Ultimately, policy is set by legislators and voters (as in Measure R). If you don't like policy, convince the legislators and voters people to vote against it. If you don't like the legislators, get them voted out. Short of that, it's all just idle chit-chat. "Living in should-land", as my grandma would say.
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Post by Gokhan on May 28, 2009 15:55:36 GMT -8
This is the latest for the La Cienega Bridge and Station, looking west. The power lines are still preventing work near La Cienega. Note how large are the I beams near the east abutment: ![](http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/esirgen/Expo%202009-05-28/IMG_0707.jpg) This is the west abutment at La Cienega. It's very tall and looks like a castle: ![](http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/esirgen/Expo%202009-05-28/IMG_0708.jpg) This is the east abutment at Ballona Creek photographed while driving: ![](http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/esirgen/Expo%202009-05-28/IMG_0709.jpg) These are the special trackwork and wooden ties mentioned by Darrell, stored by the Rancho Cienega Recreation Center next to Dorsey High: ![](http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/esirgen/Expo%202009-05-28/IMG_0703.jpg) ![](http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/esirgen/Expo%202009-05-28/IMG_0704.jpg) ![](http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo325/esirgen/Expo%202009-05-28/IMG_0705.jpg) I also happened to be driving by Dorsey High at 3:10 PM, three minutes after the final bell. The nice school kids were uniformly crossing the tracks. The overpass was unnecessary and an at-grade crossing would work very well there. Fix Expo will be hated forever by the community for having Farmdale turned into a dead-end street, forcing cars to nearby streets and forcing pedestrians to the overpass. Fix Expo's whining have resulted in a neighborhood blight. But this is what NIMBY obstructionism does: make projects worse than they are envisioned to be.
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Post by roadtrainer on May 28, 2009 17:16:48 GMT -8
Gokhan commented: This is the latest for the La Cienega Bridge and Station, looking west. The power lines are still preventing work near La Cienega. quote] I want to know why Expo decided to use LADW&P to move the power lines? ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) it is my opinion that Expo used have used a private contractor to do the work, you know it would have gone to the lowest bidder and the job would have been done already! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by Gokhan on May 28, 2009 17:41:14 GMT -8
Gokhan commented: This is the latest for the La Cienega Bridge and Station, looking west. The power lines are still preventing work near La Cienega. quote] I want to know why Expo decided to use LADW&P to move the power lines? ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) it is my opinion that Expo used have used a private contractor to do the work, you know it would have gone to the lowest bidder and the job would have been done already! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) Expo Authority haven't pushed to finish the relocation of power lines at La Brea and La Cienega because Farmdale is currently the bottleneck of the project, and even if everything else have already been finished, it would still prevent opening the line to west of Crenshaw before 2011.
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Post by Transit Coalition on May 28, 2009 20:14:23 GMT -8
Gokhan commented: This is the latest for the La Cienega Bridge and Station, looking west. The power lines are still preventing work near La Cienega. quote] I want to know why Expo decided to use LADW&P to move the power lines? ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) it is my opinion that Expo used have used a private contractor to do the work, you know it would have gone to the lowest bidder and the job would have been done already! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) Roadtrainer: These power lines belong to the Los Angeles Department of Water & Power, AKA DWP. Since, you don't really know what that means....think IBEW Local 18. Think Brian D'Arcy Business Manager / Financial Secretary. Now, again, perhaps you are drawing a blank. This guy is one of the strongest union leaders in all North America. If Brian thinks this job should take 3 years to get his guys to do the design and move the lines, than go pound sand. These are the same guys that screwed up getting recycled water along the Orange Line, because they controlled getting the work, which was at a much higher cost and a longer delivery, which would have delayed the Orange Line 24 months, so Metro took a pass on using recycled water. Brian is a guy that you walk softly around. He is the guy behind the recent LA election to install Solar Panels. His unit of IBEW has a jurisdictional agreement with the National that electrical work jobs such as this would belong to the National and the West Coast Building Trades. Brian didn't respect this and we had labor brother against brother fighting in that election.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 28, 2009 21:07:29 GMT -8
Fix Expo will be hated forever by the community for having Farmdale turned into a dead-end street, forcing cars to nearby streets and forcing pedestrians to the overpass. Fix Expo's whining have resulted in a neighborhood blight. But this is what NIMBY obstructionism does: make projects worse than they are envisioned to be. FixExpo has allowed the Expo Line to go 55 MPH near Dorsey HS and not the 15 MPH it would have due to CPUC concerns if the line ran at-grade (i.e. Mariam Way). FixExpo has made the automobile drivers ineffecient, but made it efficient for pedestrians. Come to think of it, I actually kinda like what FixExpo achieved at Farmdale. It's more pedestrian friendly and the light rail can go faster by being safely grade-seperated.
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Post by kenalpern on May 28, 2009 21:30:07 GMT -8
I concur with LA of Anaheim, although I don't think that FixExpo is either thrilled or disappointed altogether by what happened. In the end, I know I love 55 mph over 15 mph at that site.
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Post by Gokhan on May 28, 2009 21:30:23 GMT -8
^^ It's certainly better for the line. But I was talking about the local community there.
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 1, 2009 11:04:33 GMT -8
Any new pictures out there?
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 1, 2009 12:00:41 GMT -8
Anyone going to the board meeting?
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Post by darrell on Jun 1, 2009 16:42:06 GMT -8
Any new pictures out there? How about ... the rebar cage of one of the new CIDH piles for the Flower Street bridge's south abutment. Don't know why it's painted purple. The existing Adams Boulevard bridge is on the right. I presume the pink line is to cut down the old wall for the new bridge span. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/flowerbr-3498-600.jpg) Side forms have been added to the La Brea bridge falsework within the last couple of days (all photos this afternoon). ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3503-800.jpg) And the La Brea west abutment has rebar up in the air, again within the last couple of days. Looking east from one block west of La Brea you can see the two columns on the west side of La Brea, formed on the right (the center of this photo), just rebar cage on the left. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3506-800.jpg)
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 1, 2009 16:53:04 GMT -8
Any new pictures out there? How about ... the rebar cage of one of the new CIDH piles for the Flower Street bridge's south abutment. Don't know why it's painted purple. The existing Adams Boulevard bridge is on the right. I presume the pink line is to cut down the old wall for the new bridge span. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/flowerbr-3498-600.jpg) Side forms have been added to the La Brea bridge falsework within the last couple of days (all photos this afternoon). ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3503-800.jpg) And the La Brea west abutment has rebar up in the air, again within the last couple of days. Looking east from one block west of La Brea you can see the two columns on the west side of La Brea, formed on the right (the center of this photo), just rebar cage on the left. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3506-800.jpg) Nice photos. Strange that the cage is painted purple.
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Post by tonyw79sfv on Jun 1, 2009 16:59:30 GMT -8
How about ... the rebar cage of one of the new CIDH piles for the Flower Street bridge's south abutment. Don't know why it's painted purple. The existing Adams Boulevard bridge is on the right. I presume the pink line is to cut down the old wall for the new bridge span. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/flowerbr-3498-600.jpg) Side forms have been added to the La Brea bridge falsework within the last couple of days (all photos this afternoon). ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3503-800.jpg) And the La Brea west abutment has rebar up in the air, again within the last couple of days. Looking east from one block west of La Brea you can see the two columns on the west side of La Brea, formed on the right (the center of this photo), just rebar cage on the left. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3506-800.jpg) Nice photos. Strange that the cage is painted purple. 3M corrosion protectant, or it could be a coincidential Lakers pride! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by darrell on Jun 1, 2009 17:15:33 GMT -8
Anyone going to the board meeting? I wasn't there, but there was this dramatic photo of demolishing the old Flower bridge's center pier in the monthly board presentation. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/flowerbr-6109-800.jpg)
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Post by darrell on Jun 1, 2009 17:21:42 GMT -8
"3M™ Scotchkote™ Rebar Liquid Purple Patch Compound 323" - makes sense (thanks!). But now we can wonder why most of Expo's rebar cages aren't treated that way.
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Post by darrell on Jun 2, 2009 16:54:56 GMT -8
Anyone going to the board meeting? I heard that Item 7.d, At the April Board meeting, Authority staff was asked to follow-up on several issues raised during the discussion of the DEIR for the Phase 2 project. Authority staff will present a verbal update on these issues, which will be addressed as part of the Phase 2 FEIR. was essentially an overview saying that they've continued to meet with the City of Santa Monica, LA DOT, and the CPUC, but no new conclusions to report. Current Expo Board vice-chair Herb Wesson will become the new chair, and Zev Yaroslavsky was elected the new vice-chair.
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Post by roadtrainer on Jun 2, 2009 17:17:58 GMT -8
Gokhan commented: This is the latest for the La Cienega Bridge and Station, looking west. The power lines are still preventing work near La Cienega. quote] I want to know why Expo decided to use LADW&P to move the power lines? ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) it is my opinion that Expo used have used a private contractor to do the work, you know it would have gone to the lowest bidder and the job would have been done already! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) Roadtrainer: These power lines belong to the Los Angeles Department of Water & Power, AKA DWP. Since, you don't really know what that means....think IBEW Local 18. Think Brian D'Arcy Business Manager / Financial Secretary. Now, again, perhaps you are drawing a blank. This guy is one of the strongest union leaders in all North America. If Brian thinks this job should take 3 years to get his guys to do the design and move the lines, than go pound sand. These are the same guys that screwed up getting recycled water along the Orange Line, because they controlled getting the work, which was at a much higher cost and a longer delivery, which would have delayed the Orange Line 24 months, so Metro took a pass on using recycled water. Brian is a guy that you walk softly around. He is the guy behind the recent LA election to install Solar Panels. His unit of IBEW has a jurisdictional agreement with the National that electrical work jobs such as this would belong to the National and the West Coast Building Trades. Brian didn't respect this and we had labor brother against brother fighting in that election. Well they could have used a IBEW contractor and got the job done quicker than the dw&p! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by darrell on Jun 2, 2009 18:00:05 GMT -8
![](http://friends4expo.org/images/labrea-3506-800z.jpg) In this zoomed detail from my earlier La Brea construction photo I've highlighted in yellow the current ends of the forms for the two bridge spans and the sides of the forms for the right column. The taper of the columns is supposed to continue up the sides of the bridge spans. You can also see the ends of the I-beams that will support the forms for the station platform between the bridge spans.
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 2, 2009 18:34:36 GMT -8
How long can I expect to wait to see an actual bridge at La Brea and La Cienega? Does anyone know when will they start the drilling for the Venice/Robinson station?
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Post by joshuanickel on Jun 2, 2009 18:38:16 GMT -8
Fix Expo will be hated forever by the community for having Farmdale turned into a dead-end street, forcing cars to nearby streets and forcing pedestrians to the overpass. Fix Expo's whining have resulted in a neighborhood blight. But this is what NIMBY obstructionism does: make projects worse than they are envisioned to be. FixExpo has allowed the Expo Line to go 55 MPH near Dorsey HS and not the 15 MPH it would have due to CPUC concerns if the line ran at-grade (i.e. Mariam Way). FixExpo has made the automobile drivers ineffecient, but made it efficient for pedestrians. Come to think of it, I actually kinda like what FixExpo achieved at Farmdale. It's more pedestrian friendly and the light rail can go faster by being safely grade-seperated. I agree. FixExpo has made it that the people on the train can get to their designation faster than if they had to slow to a halt for the children. So the people have to climb some stairs. That is what they get for trying to fight Metro. It is a win/win situation.
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Post by darrell on Jun 2, 2009 21:20:57 GMT -8
How long can I expect to wait to see an actual bridge at La Brea and La Cienega? Does anyone know when will they start the drilling for the Venice/Robinson bridge? La Brea will be first. The two west columns and west abutment (the photo I just posted) should be complete within a month, based on the construction pace on the east side of La Brea. Then come the rest of the falsework, rebar, and concrete. So you could see a bridge in August. La Cienega's power lines may be down by the end of June, but there are still four footings and columns after that before the bridge falsework, so maybe it'll lag a couple of months after La Brea. The four big steel cylinders in the photo below east of La Cienega, taken yesterday, will line the upper part of these four footings. The holes go down over 80 feet. ![](http://friends4expo.org/images/lacienega-3507-800.jpg) The phase 1 Culver City bridge stops short of Venice/Robertson. Footings for the Culver City station and the Washington and National bridges should start in the next couple of months.
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Post by darrell on Jun 7, 2009 11:42:58 GMT -8
Not only have a number of smaller French cities ( Strasbourg, Grenoble, Bordeaux, Lyon, Montpellier) built new tram lines, but even Paris has recently supplemented its historic subway system with new trams. This photo shows the T3 line, opened in 2006, at-grade mostly in grassy boulevard medians. The density of its surrounding neighborhoods is obviously much greater than the Expo Line's typical neighborhoods. ![](http://images.nycsubway.org/i62000/img_62701.jpg)
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 7, 2009 14:21:07 GMT -8
It's interesting that the T3 has traffic lights every block and pedestrian crossings in the middle of each block. While it is reported to be very slow they seem to place a higher priority on pedestrians than what we see from LACMTA.
Personally I'm not as big a fan of the slower, street running European style trams as you and Gokhan appear to be. The above picture is an example of what I don't want for LA. Such a line would be a good candidate for grade separation in LA. Or just use buses.
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