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Post by James Fujita on Oct 14, 2010 18:31:49 GMT -8
I'm not that surprised the 5th St station is sacrificed but I'm not too upset by it either. Perhaps now Metro will investigate the possibility of adding access points and tunnels to Metro Center from as far away as 5th St and 9th St? What about involving all the property owners in Downtown to seriously think about adding underground access to ALL the subway stations? I would be completely in favor of this idea. Of course, there are a lot of "ifs" in the way — finding the funding, does Metro pay or does the developer, is there actually an underground mall (or is there underground parking, underground storage or underground utilities in the way) for pedestrians to reach. However, if it could be done, the benefits would be well worth it. I'm thinking better connectivity: the same sort of easy access that drivers get when they park in underground structures. I'm thinking "oh look, here's the subway station entrance, how convenient". Weather isn't such an issue here, but even then: relief from El Nino, relief from unusually warm Octobers, relief from July heat, relief even from the car canyons which are all too familiar downtown. (And please don't say "eliminate the cars", we need to keep SOME downtown streets open to traffic ;D ) Just about every subway station in Tokyo (yes, even the smaller ones) has some sort of pedestrian mall attached: a florist perhaps, a noodle shop, or a bookstore/ newsstand, at the very least an easier, safer way to cross busy intersections. At 7th/Metro, I would investigate the 7th+Fig shops. And north to 5th Street. At Civic Center, a diagonal between the Red Line (1st/Hill) and Regional Connector (2nd/Broadway). Note that "investigate" does not necessarily mean "build". Again, it's not always going to be possible, but I get the feeling we haven't even been trying.
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Post by erict on Oct 14, 2010 19:15:11 GMT -8
The streets are not very difficult to traverse in downtown, at least every time I have been there it seemed pretty easy to me. There are a number of elevated walkways already, so maybe an elevated walkway would work if it was needed.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 14, 2010 20:55:30 GMT -8
The streets are not very difficult to traverse in downtown, at least every time I have been there it seemed pretty easy to me. There are a number of elevated walkways already, so maybe an elevated walkway would work if it was needed. I repectively disagree about the overhead walkways ('pedways'). People belong on the street, not separated from it. Pedways belong in the dustbin of bad urban planning ideas from the past. They typically signal abdication of the street to high-speed automobile traffic. On the other hand, a tunnel north from Metro Center, is ok because it offers a more direct route than exiting at 7th/Flower. Just my crazy opinionated two cents.
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Post by erict on Oct 15, 2010 7:15:37 GMT -8
I don't love the walkways that exist, they are pretty ugly. I think the street is fine, but if it becomes super dense it may be an option, hopefully something nicely designed. A subway tunnel would be even better, but who will pay for it?
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Post by bzcat on Oct 15, 2010 9:41:15 GMT -8
Adding underground access points to Metro Center and Civic Center is not about avoiding walking in traffic or weather per se. I see it as an opportunity for Downtown property owners to redevelop their buildings and add new retail revenue where none exists now - and thereby enhance the entire subway experience for the users. The LA subway stations are designed in isolation and does not really take into account of where the users really want to go. Why make people go up 3 flights of escalators, walk a block to the crosswalk, wait for the light to change, cross the street, only to go underground again to the mall/hotel/office building?
The point is that right now, even if a property owner wants to connect to 7th St station (or any other station), there is no legal way for them to do it. Metro as an agency is not particularly interested in real estate development, and any attempts to coordinate with private property owners will probably be tarred by rival property owners or some interest groups as inappropriate Govt favoritism.
Metro should adopt a policy of open access... any property owners that wants to connect to the subway station can do so as long as they have done the proper engineering and permits. And it should allow people who construct these tunnels to retain retail development rights right outside the stations.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 15, 2010 11:22:05 GMT -8
Metro should adopt a policy of open access... any property owners that wants to connect to the subway station can do so as long as they have done the proper engineering and permits. And it should allow people who construct these tunnels to retain retail development rights right outside the stations. I 100% agree with you, this would be ideal. And having visited several subway systems around the world, I suspect this is how it's done in other cities. I've said it before: one of the biggest problems I have with our subway is how stingy Metro is with the entrances. So if it's possible, leveraging private enterprise might be the best solution. Not being a civil engineer, I wonder if our stations are structurally designed to allow breaking open a wall to allow such connections to local businesses. Are there non-load-bearing sections that can be removed to allow easy connections?
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Post by tobias087 on Oct 18, 2010 14:58:46 GMT -8
Don't forget to submit public comments today! Urge Metro to try and figure out some way to keep the 5th/Flower station! Or at the very least, provide a pedestrian alternative to 7th, such as a tunnel to 5th st.
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K 22
Full Member
Posts: 117
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Post by K 22 on Oct 20, 2010 13:09:25 GMT -8
In Center City Philadelphia, along their Market Street subway, there are a couple of 4 block long underground pedestrian concourses along the line behind the platforms from (iirc) the 11th Street station to the 15th Street station with entrances at 11th, 12th, 13th, Juniper, City Hall and 15th along the way.
Since the 5th Street station is all but dead (boo) - I wonder if something like that could work in LA from 7th to 2nd/Hope.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 21, 2010 18:50:33 GMT -8
It's not all that uncommon for subway systems to have large stations, either by having long pedestrian tunnels or underground malls or both. These can be on the "mezzanine level" or even the same level as the tracks. I'm not familiar with the situation in Philly, but generally speaking, I find that large or long stations, combined with multiple station entrances, can lead to the impression of a subway station which really covers a lot of territory, and can be perceived as more convenient than a subway which only has a few exits per station. Of course, by the time you build a station which is several blocks long, some might start wondering if it would cost as much as adding the extra station. Of course, extra stations would mean extra platforms, extra ticket machines, extra fare gates and other things which would add to the cost, so you'd probably have to have a fairly large station before it exhausted the price saving possibilities
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 10:32:28 GMT -8
Board meeting is happening now, discussing the Regional Connector. For those not there in person, you can listen on the phone (213-922-6045).
Metro staff representative said there have been requests for keeping 5th/Flower station in the study, in case some funding source or strategy appears in the future. Jan Perry said she supports the continuing study of the station.
So now they are considering adding 5th/Flower as an optional station (instead of simply deleting it).
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 28, 2010 10:36:00 GMT -8
That's good to know. At the very least, they can plan ahead, so that they're not shackled by current funding constraints.
Even the possibility of a station is better than nothing.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 10:38:10 GMT -8
Very interesting!
The staff recommendation on the elimination of 4-1/2th St Station is being reversed, guess thanks to who -- Mark Ridley-Thomas.
This is good news!
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 10:38:37 GMT -8
Wilcox building has been removed. I don't know what that means.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 10:41:48 GMT -8
Katz expressed his skepticism on the appearance of station. Somebody (woman) said if the 5th/Flower station is not built, they are looking at converting the emergency exits to 6th/Flower into full entrance portals.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 10:42:01 GMT -8
Heated discussion is taking place on the 4-1/2th St Station.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 10:43:59 GMT -8
Somebody (woman) said if the 5th/Flower station is not built, they are looking at converting the emergency exits to 6th/Flower into full entrance portals. She is the project manager Dolores Roybal Saltarelli I believe.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 10:49:20 GMT -8
Somebody (woman) said if the 5th/Flower station is not built, they are looking at converting the emergency exits to 6th/Flower into full entrance portals. She is the project manager Dolores Roybal Saltarelli I believe. I believe they said ms Saltarelli was absent, having her baby.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 28, 2010 10:50:41 GMT -8
Google says Wilcox Building is (or was?) at the corner of Spring and Second? Obviously the RC would go right through there....
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 28, 2010 10:57:11 GMT -8
Is there no chance for an in-fill station?
There's a station on the Ginza Line which didn't exist a few years ago, and that line is both busy and has been in operation for ages.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 28, 2010 10:58:43 GMT -8
Google says Wilcox Building is (or was?) at the corner of Spring and Second? Obviously the RC would go right through there.... Yes, it's the one with the Credit Union Bank. It's a 1-story building. It's across the LAPD park on the north side and a parking lot on the west side; and catty-corner from the Los Angeles times building. No big thing. Metro will just use the parking lot on the southwest corner. Whatever.... I wouldn't fret over this.
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 28, 2010 11:04:58 GMT -8
Regarding Regional Connector on Twitter,
There was an amendment to add back the 5th & Flower station which failed 4-3-3. (Mayor was absent for this vote.)
Fasana stated that if the business community wanted the station, they should pony up the dough.
Perry had asked Metro not to pit the financial district against Little Tokyo.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 28, 2010 11:09:41 GMT -8
Oh, I get it now. There used to be a taller building there, and that was called the Wilcox Building. Link. And then that was torn down obviously and replaced by that little squat thing behind the Times Building. A shame, it might be historic or valuable if it were still around. (People have a habit of naming a block after a former or original tenant. So "The Wilcox Building", even if the current edifice obviously isn't.)
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 28, 2010 11:11:09 GMT -8
I would actually love to see 7th Street/Metro Center become a "mega transit center" 2nd in size to Union Station. I don't mind the elimination of 5th/Flower, as long as they follow through on opening up a portal on 6th/Flower..because the distance to the actual Red/Purple/Blue lines below would be an afterthought with a large station. Maybe we could have an underground retail depot with an expanded station.
If that's what happens, then I have no problem supporting a deletion of 5th/Flower.
But, you got to admit, it's kinda funny how this has evolved into a Little Tokyo v. Financial District issue because the elimination occured kinda due to Little Tokyo's request. But, I would prefer an underground re-built Little Tokyo station over 5th/Flower.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 11:11:50 GMT -8
So, the Mark-Ridley Thomas motion to keep the 4-1/2 St Station failed then. It sucks.
As I said, when someone supports the wrong cause for 90% of the time, he gets ignored when is supporting the right cause.
Metro was incredibly shortsighted on this issue. 7th/Metro Center will now be way beyond capacity when the Downtown LRT connector opens.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 11:18:20 GMT -8
Talk of 6th/Flower station entrance, possibly connected to City National Plaza, is very promising IMO.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 28, 2010 11:18:47 GMT -8
It ALWAYS occurred to me that this either was, or would very clearly become a Little Tokyo vs. the Financial District thing. It shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone.
Little Tokyo got exactly what [ transit fans, Little Tokyo activists, people opposed to ground-level transit ] wanted, needed and demanded. The Financial District didn't.
Clearly, the Financial District deserves some sort of compensation, and a expanded mega-Metro Center station would do.
EDIT: if the 4 1/2 station is dead, let's get the 6th Street entrance built.
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Post by metrocenter on Oct 28, 2010 11:20:44 GMT -8
So, the Mark-Ridley Thomas motion to keep the 4-1/2 St Station failed then. It sucks. Yeah it sucks.
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 28, 2010 11:23:48 GMT -8
The financial district could have also ponied up some dough for that 4-1/2 station if they really wanted it.
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Post by Gokhan on Oct 28, 2010 11:26:08 GMT -8
I believe in most downtown subways, station spacing is very small. They are making a big mistake by thinking that this is an interurban subway (like the Westside subway) and therefore should have mile-apart stations.
They are going to lose a big opportunity and, as I said, the platforms of 7th/Metro will not hold the passengers if the system becomes successful. It's almost like they want the system not to be successful by thinking that the capacity of 7th/Metro will be sufficient after the expansion of the system.
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Post by James Fujita on Oct 28, 2010 11:29:51 GMT -8
The financial district could have also ponied up some dough for that 4-1/2 station if they really wanted it. Little Tokyo also fought incredibly hard for underground (except for a few who fought against the whole project). Somehow, NIMBYs and transit fans ended up on the same side of the argument. I don't remember hearing much of anything about the Financial District fighting for or against it. Ah well. Moving on. I forget, what's underneath City National Plaza? Anything worth hooking up to?
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