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Post by thanks4goingmetro on May 20, 2011 14:54:56 GMT -8
If the streetcar gets built before the regional connector, and it connects to Union Station (lots of if's) - will there be political will to not build the Regional Connector since the streetcar will duplicate some of it's route? I hope not. It will be nice to have both. I think the downtown streetcar should avoid crossing the blue line tracks even if it means more of a connection to LA Live than the staples center (section C3). The idea of the proposed streetcar in Downtown Los Angeles is to provide that "last mile" transportation through a very low fare, slow local access streetcar that will operate at high frequencies and will creep along a loop route in Downtown Los Angeles. To answer some of the other guys' questions, no the streetcar will not receive a dedicated lane, it will use the curb lane. I am pushing some of the people on the board to consider a middle lane for travel with a boarding island, like the SF Muni F-Line. No, there isn't a technical challenge for crossing the Blue/Expo Line tracks, but there is a concern with those lines crossing every 1.5 minutes do we really want interfere with that. I talked to one of the former LADOT board guys who is on the Streetcar board and asked him if they would consider fusing two Dash lines together to get an idea of the connectivity that a streetcar line would bring with rails in the ground. I talked to Stephen Brye, he said that the tracks from Los Angeles Railway were never ripped out on Broadway, only paved over, they know the tracks are rotten but at least no utilities were put in under that pavement in the last 40 years so that'll save some money. Heck there's supports still on building faces to hold up the catenary wire! You can submit your comments at metro.net/streetcar so it can be on the record.
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Post by carter on May 20, 2011 15:47:57 GMT -8
If it's not going to have it's own freakin travel lane, we might as well trick out the suspension on a NABI 60-footer and put it on a leash. Because that's what you'll get for a mobility "improvement." I also don't see why we can't have the streetcar "cross" the Blue Line at 11th or Olympic instead of at Pico. Why force the issue? I get the feeling that 11th Street is the direction the streetcar is headed: The path of least resistance for operations and construction.
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Post by jamesinclair on May 21, 2011 0:51:47 GMT -8
[EDIT: BTW, whatever mitigation AEG was required to do for Staples Center or L.A. Live has probably already been paid back. ] Putting the Blue Line underground south of the 10 Freeway though, would be really pushing it. And in any case, that would be separate from the streetcar. To repeat: why not Olympic? I admit I wasnt following development in LA back then, but I wouldnt be surprised if the situation was "PLEASE COME DOWNTOWN WE NEED YOU! We'll pay you for every additional car trip you create!!!! How many garages do you need subsidized???" Or, you know, just a slight step above handing them $100m in tax breaks. And as I said, by starting the grade separation by the freeway, you can sell it as "getting those pesky trains out of the way of the extremely important on-ramps. Must keep a B LOS rating at all costs!" If it's not going to have it's own freakin travel lane, we might as well trick out the suspension on a NABI 60-footer and put it on a leash. Because that's what you'll get for a mobility "improvement." \. Trackless trolley is best. Wire can be strung between two lanes so the bus can use either one (go around double--parked UPS vans). Quiet, like a train. Sense of permanence with the wires.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 21, 2011 10:02:22 GMT -8
I admit I wasnt following development in LA back then, but I wouldnt be surprised if the situation was "PLEASE COME DOWNTOWN WE NEED YOU! We'll pay you for every additional car trip you create!!!! How many garages do you need subsidized???" Or, you know, just a slight step above handing them $100m in tax breaks. Trackless trolley is best. Wire can be strung between two lanes so the bus can use either one (go around double--parked UPS vans). Quiet, like a train. Sense of permanence with the wires. Just imagine downtown LA before 1999. Giving some tax breaks to corporations to build in a blighted area is a COMMON thing throughout the WORLD. If you have a problem with this, then you have a problem with understanding WORLD business/governments. You invest largely in an area that needs help. Downtown LA in the '90s needed help, it's not a big secret. The Great Western Forum was absolute s***hole, so AEG came in and saw urban stadiums were the way to go (it only started becoming common in the 90s that stadiums were moving into the city rathern than suburb). Significant cash is needed up front in order to build a sports stadium, so the city stepped in and yes, AEG received some breaks. Through Staples Center/LA Live!, downtown LA now has the following businesses that DID NOT receive tax breaks and we are now getting tax money that previously were dormant areas: 717 Olympic, Market Lofts, Watermarke Tower, Concerto, Luma, Elleven, Evo, Target (2012), 7th street restaurant row, Flower street lofts, and all those new restaurants serving LA Live! and surrounding area (Panini cafe, Bottlerock, El Chollo, Magnolia, etc...). People can s*** on AEG tax breaks all they want, but just imagine downtown LA without AEG. I wouldn't be living 2 blocks away from LA Live! supporting our new local downtown businesses who arrived primarily for AEG. Los Angeles is a thriving city, not a middle class surburban town that should have planning dominated by "traffic fears". If people don't want traffic, then I don't understand why they choose to live in world-class cities. The only difference between us and other world-class cities, is the lack of a significant transit system. That's what we need to promote, not "traffic"; otherwise a politician thinks that means you want more road lanes.
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Post by rayinla on May 21, 2011 16:36:32 GMT -8
People can s*** on AEG tax breaks all they want, but just imagine downtown LA without AEG. I wouldn't be living 2 blocks away from LA Live! supporting our new local downtown businesses who arrived primarily for AEG. AEG was also required to build affordable housing for those who were dislocated by the arena and create the Kings Foundation to support local schools/arts in the immediate area, among other things. And in addition to the new buildings you mentioned, the city collects a hefty parking tax from all the lots surrounding Staples/LA Live.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 21, 2011 19:56:42 GMT -8
People can s*** on AEG tax breaks all they want, but just imagine downtown LA without AEG. I wouldn't be living 2 blocks away from LA Live! supporting our new local downtown businesses who arrived primarily for AEG. AEG was also required to build affordable housing for those who were dislocated by the arena and create the Kings Foundation to support local schools/arts in the immediate area, among other things. And in addition to the new buildings you mentioned, the city collects a hefty parking tax from all the lots surrounding Staples/LA Live. In LA's rule book, if you do not directly build affordable housing units, you pay a certain %age to the Skid Row Housing Trust to enhance the services in the 2 mile area. That's what most developers choose to do............ I know rayinla you love to be critical of LA in every aspect.....but you cannot think that Downtown LA in 1998 is better than downtown LA in 2011....really....really Monthly artwalks that draw 20,000 +, cicLAvias, today's Red Bull Soapbox car racing....LA is just more fun for people today than prior to AEG's investment. You think New Yorkers love their Times Square? As a local, they don't like it, but they know it helps bring attention to that part of town. Just think of LA Live! as a tourist/entertainment trap...it brings attention and much needed people/live to Los Angeles.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 21, 2011 20:03:01 GMT -8
Another thing......how many more people are employed in South Park of downtown LA thanks to AEG? Look at all those people (especially many of them from South LA) working at Staples, Nokia Theater and the countless restaurants in the area. And, I repeat, all those brand new buildings in the area that are for PEOPLE and not CARS. A parking lot does nothing if there is no destination attached. If parking is what people want...then Santa Clarita would be the most hopping place in Los Angeles.
Thanks to AEG we have Watermarke, 717 Olympic, Market Lofts, Luma, Evo, Elleven, Flower street Lofts, The Met, etc.... they are contributing to our taxable base AND have the same affordable housing requirement ALL DEVELOPERS are required. I.e. either build a set aside # of affordable housing units or pay into the Skid Row Housing Trust. So, even the homeless population is better off today with all that new money coming in (i.e. Rainbow Apartments, Women's Center <-- new developments in recent years) because of AEG investing in the area.
Just think reasonable about what we have achieved with a life of AEG than without.
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Post by jamesinclair on May 21, 2011 20:10:36 GMT -8
AEG is not a charity. They didnt locate downtown to help people, they did it because they know that building an entertainment center in Palmdale would not attract the same level of revenue.
And just because their project brings in positive externalities (jobs, exposure, etc) doesn't mean they shouldn't have to pay for all the negative ones they create.
If they came and said "we'll only do this with 100m in tax monies" then why not turn around, use the 100m in tax monies to build a public facility, and enjoy 100+ years of revenue directly to the government? I doubt AEG would be very happy about that scenario!
In the current situation, these massive corporations get to have their cake and eat it too. Public monies, private profits. And then again public monies to solve problems created by the project. And ON TOP OF THAT massive tax breaks.
And then they want the taxpayer to pay for ifnrastructure needed to get taxpayers to their cash registers?
Asking them to chip in to necessary transportation projects (putting the blue line underground) is the least we should do. And in the end, they once again benefit. The more people we can cram downtown, the more customers they have.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 21, 2011 23:05:32 GMT -8
AEG is not a charity. They didnt locate downtown to help people, they did it because they know that building an entertainment center in Palmdale would not attract the same level of revenue. And just because their project brings in positive externalities (jobs, exposure, etc) doesn't mean they shouldn't have to pay for all the negative ones they create. If they came and said "we'll only do this with 100m in tax monies" then why not turn around, use the 100m in tax monies to build a public facility, and enjoy 100+ years of revenue directly to the government? I doubt AEG would be very happy about that scenario! In the current situation, these massive corporations get to have their cake and eat it too. Public monies, private profits. And then again public monies to solve problems created by the project. And ON TOP OF THAT massive tax breaks. And then they want the taxpayer to pay for ifnrastructure needed to get taxpayers to their cash registers? Asking them to chip in to necessary transportation projects (putting the blue line underground) is the least we should do. And in the end, they once again benefit. The more people we can cram downtown, the more customers they have. Yes, and the more people we cram in downtown, the safer Los Angeles is. Do you remember how LA was before AEG? Honestly, did you feel that safe with just parking lots? As somebody who moved here in 2007, I've seen a tremendous change in our neighborhood. Across the street was a parking lot before it became Ralphs/Market Lofts. My neighbors remarked to me how much safer the area is now there is people living there and a supermarket open from 5 am to 2 am 365 days a year. Cramming people into downtown IS what should happen in a downtown of a major metropolis. If you want an empty downtown, then stick to the outer suburbs. Downtown LA deserves more people, attractions and opportunties. This is one of the world's largest cities, not a suburb. Remember, this whole thing with AEG is not uncommon to Los Angeles. The people freaking out here think that Los Angeles is the ONLY city in the world to ever do this...which is 100% false. Cities do this all the time for the investment. You give in some breaks, in order to get a return. And again, without AEG, you would not have three large worldwide corporations who have relocated their business to downtown LA (AEG corporate <-- not tax exempt, Herbalife and ESPN studios). Also, as mentioned to rayinla, due to AEG, the city actually earns more local taxes (i.e. BID) which makes the streets safer and more services provided for homeless (i.e. Project 50....thanks to a lot more tax revenue that funds this). Over the last 10 years, the following have opened in Skid Row: Genesis apartments, Rainbow Apartments, Women's Center, St. George Hotel, and Abbey Apartments. Look, be reasonable. Investments are needed in the area. Tax breaks are a COMMON mechanism throughout the world. We now have a central area in which Rose Bowl teams will do their pep rallys (it was a great sight last year...and more to come), blockbuster premieres at Regal Cinemas, people WALKING between LA Live! and Convention Center, etc.. AEG will help fund some of the streetcar, they have never been against that, the question of how much will have to be explored. But don't s*** on AEG, when in reality, downtown LA is truly much better off with them than without them. I shudder to live in a downtown surrounded by parking lots.....and so do my new neighbors in Market Lofts, Concerto, Watermarke, 717 Olympic, Evo, Luma, Elleven, people like us who are contributing to the local tax base which allows Skid Row to receive more money than before.
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Post by rayinla on May 22, 2011 13:55:27 GMT -8
AEG was also required to build affordable housing for those who were dislocated by the arena and create the Kings Foundation to support local schools/arts in the immediate area, among other things. And in addition to the new buildings you mentioned, the city collects a hefty parking tax from all the lots surrounding Staples/LA Live. I know rayinla you love to be critical of LA in every aspect.....but you cannot think that Downtown LA in 1998 is better than downtown LA in 2011....really....really What the hell are you talking about? I'm not criticizing AEG nor am I critical of LA. I moved here in 1993 by choice. I've run a major nonprofit organization. I've lobbied public officials and spoken before government committees and commissions on behalf the arts, the environment and transit. I write my representatives on City Council, County, State and Federal government regularly for or against legislation. Who the frak are you to judge me?
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 22, 2011 21:27:54 GMT -8
What the hell are you talking about? I'm not criticizing AEG nor am I critical of LA. I moved here in 1993 by choice. I've run a major nonprofit organization. I've lobbied public officials and spoken before government committees and commissions on behalf the arts, the environment and transit. I write my representatives on City Council, County, State and Federal government regularly for or against legislation. Who the frak are you to judge me? I was carrying forward the anger you kept expressing over the Santa Monica Big Blue Bus adjustments into this forum. Will keep that separate. Now, let's focus on the downtown LA streetcar project instead of getting hung up on AEG. Fact is, AEG is in downtown LA and is a major player for future development in the South Park area; like it or not. Let's focus on the specifics of the project, the overhead wire issues, crossing Blue/Expo tracks, destinations, etc.. Let's not divert into a political discussion about tax breaks/AEG. That's a heated discussion that is nowhere relevant for a streetcar project that has more than AEG involved (Bringing Back Broadway, Related's Grand are the other 2 major players in the streetcar project). These off-hand political comments can rile people up!
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Post by Dan Wentzel on May 23, 2011 8:28:59 GMT -8
You think New Yorkers love their Times Square? As a local, they don't like it, but they know it helps bring attention to that part of town. Just think of LA Live! as a tourist/entertainment trap...it brings attention and much needed people/live to Los Angeles. I lived one block west of Times Square for seven years and LOVED it.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on May 23, 2011 9:21:13 GMT -8
You think New Yorkers love their Times Square? As a local, they don't like it, but they know it helps bring attention to that part of town. Just think of LA Live! as a tourist/entertainment trap...it brings attention and much needed people/live to Los Angeles. I lived one block west of Times Square for seven years and LOVED it. I visited college friends 3 years ago in New York and said it was the first time they went to the Hard Rock in Times Square in a few years because its a "tourist trap". But, to each their own, I love LA Live! too!; though I will not frequent it as much as 7th street or the Historic Core in Downtown LA. Now, back to the streetcar!
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Post by rayinla on May 23, 2011 13:39:06 GMT -8
I was carrying forward the anger you kept expressing over the Santa Monica Big Blue Bus adjustments into this forum. Will keep that separate. Wasn't me.
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Post by thanks4goingmetro on May 23, 2011 13:56:54 GMT -8
I've been trying to float the idea of turning Chick Hearn Ct into a pedestrian only street and having the streetcar have an alignment that goes down the middle. I know that today there are two parking lots on both sides but there are plans for a hotel and something else in the other lot space. Put some tables out and maybe convert the asphalt to cobblestones and you have a little strip of Europe in downtown Los Angeles. The walk between LA Live and Pico Station is going to be a lot more pleasant and comfy.
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Post by James Fujita on May 23, 2011 21:17:08 GMT -8
That sounds like a pretty cool idea. It would definitely work between Staples Center, the convention center and L.A. Live. Turning Chick Hearn into a pedestrian/ transit mall would make the walk to Pico Station better.
They already close the section out in front of Staples Center for events (for example, when Anime Expo takes over both LACC and L.A. Live). They might be able to close it east of Pico Station as well. 11th Street is pretty narrow by Los Angeles standards, so it might be doable.
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Post by rubbertoe on Jul 22, 2011 9:29:00 GMT -8
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Post by jdrcrasher on Jul 22, 2011 12:15:06 GMT -8
Segment A: This segment could be interesting, because while both A4 and A7 have advanced they are radically different in what they would do.
On one hand, with A4, the streetcar would run through Bunker hill and the Grand Avenue Project. With this area poised to take off later this decade, this would serve an emerging part of downtown. But with A7, you not only immediately open opportunities for future extensions, but create a route towards Union Station.
In my opinion, A4 over A7. If the Broadway Streetcar proves to be a success, then we can expand it to serve the Arts District and more of the Fashion District.
Segment B: They've advanced both alternatives, but, to me, B2 wins in the end because it increases the route's coverage by being 2 blocks away from the southbound Broadway leg.
Segment C: Advancing C1 is just common sense. It likely will cost more, but serves a much larger portion of south park and runs right along Figueroa for much of the way.
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Jul 22, 2011 12:25:38 GMT -8
Minor quibble.
This project is technically not part of the Downtown Connector and should be moved to join in the streetcar forum, IMO.
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Post by bzcat on Aug 29, 2011 10:58:24 GMT -8
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 25, 2011 18:09:01 GMT -8
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 26, 2011 9:35:06 GMT -8
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Post by Dan Wentzel on Oct 26, 2011 9:46:54 GMT -8
It's hard to tell from the Analysis which one will be presented as the LPA.
I imagine that Union Station will not be part of this first alignment as the Regional Connector will provide service between Union Station and the Convention Center.
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Post by matthewb on Oct 26, 2011 11:39:33 GMT -8
It's hard to tell from the Analysis which one will be presented as the LPA. I think the made up scoreboard in Table 2 says alternative 7 would most likely be presented as the LPA. I think it's an OK option. It hits enough attractions, has good connections to the subway, doesn't form a couplet separated by a couple blocks, and has a little tail that goes by Eli Broad's museum. That way he might not re-route the whole thing on a cocktail napkin next year. It's also one of the cheapest. I would love to see a project that was seen to be good value that could support future extensions to more of downtown, and eventually LAUS/Chinatown, Pico-Union, Westlake, Koreatown etc.
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 26, 2011 13:23:01 GMT -8
So, for lack of a better name, here is the soon to be local preferred alternative for the LA Streetcar: A couple comments off the top of my head. I find it interesting that they ended up adding the square at the bottom as a new alternative. This deviates from the philosophy of using Hill and Broadway for the longest duration to allow for riders to easily jump on the next street to get back to where they came from. So, if you now get on at 7th and Figueroa, you need to go all the way around to get to say 11th and Broadway. I guess the idea was that the commenters wanted the stop at 7th and Flower for easy Red/Blue/Expo line access. With that change, the streetcar now hits 3 different Red Line stations, one of which also has light rail (7th/Flower), and also hits the light rail station at 2nd/Broadway. Connectivity is not lacking by any means. I would also point out that anyone taking the Red Line and going to Staples will still find the fastest route to be walking from 7th/Flower, since the streetcar is going the other way. It would be nice to see this overlaid on a map that also showed all the other rail lines, including the DC. How is that red stub section going to work? Will streetcars coming up Hill turn left on 1st then left on Grand? If it is single tracked (I assume), will the streetcar have a roundabout to turn around there? RT
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Post by rubbertoe on Oct 26, 2011 13:34:09 GMT -8
Streetcar in Black:
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Oct 26, 2011 14:46:28 GMT -8
Interesting they chose 7th street. Though the most ideal street, it will soon be re-striped with bike lanes and then a streetcar. 7th street as we know it could 2 car lanes only (1 east and 1 west) with bike lanes and streetcar service. Pretty cool! I'd love to see how the streetcar interacts when cicLAvia is happening!!
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Post by jdrcrasher on Oct 26, 2011 17:26:15 GMT -8
What are you guys talking about? Alternative 7 scored the lowest out of ANY of the alternatives on Table 2...
EDIT: Nevermind. Didn't realize that the one with the lowest score means the highest rated.
Kind of a weird way of doing it, though...
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Post by bluelineshawn on Oct 26, 2011 19:01:41 GMT -8
I would also point out that anyone taking the Red Line and going to Staples will still find the fastest route to be walking from 7th/Flower, since the streetcar is going the other way. There are still buses which from a travel perspective can do everything that the streetcar will do except with more coverage. Speaking of which they could replace the streetcar with dedicated, free buses for decades and move the same amount of people for far less money.
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Post by carter on Oct 26, 2011 22:14:33 GMT -8
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