elray
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by elray on Mar 17, 2008 23:10:41 GMT -8
Some time ago I found out that there was to be a "Rapid 7" route on Pico, but never heard any further info.
Today, I discovered that apparently, MTA and Big Blue intend to operate separate lines, meaning a transfer at Pico/Rimpau. In other words, they'll both spend several million dollars, buy/paint/brand new buses and stops, but the difference in trip time will be negligible (lost in transfer).
Is there any reasoned approach to get the two agencies to operate their "Rapid" as a single-seat ride?
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Post by rayinla on Aug 14, 2008 21:33:33 GMT -8
I've been thinking that the MTA could boost ridership on the Olympic 728 (particularly at mid-day when it runs mostly empty) if it continued beyond Century City to Santa Monica.
Since this would be invading Big Blue Bus' "turf", I'd like to see the MTA curtail local 28 at Fairfax (short line stop) and persuade Big Blue to service local stops with the #5 bus along Olympic to Fairfax before turning south to Pico and the Transit Center (as opposed to turning south at Beverly Blvd and duplicating service along Pico (with the #7).
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Post by redwings105th on Apr 19, 2010 20:04:24 GMT -8
I remember that the Big Blue wanted to extend Rapid 7 all the way to the Wilshire/Western Red Line Station. Is that still part of their plans? I want to see how this works out between Metro and Big Blue if this does come into play.
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Post by ieko on Apr 19, 2010 21:59:15 GMT -8
Big Blue Bus now has permission to go to Wilshire and Western, the problem now is that they lack the funds to make this happen.
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Post by transitfan on Apr 20, 2010 7:25:30 GMT -8
What would be the routing? Continue east on Pico to Western, then north to "WIL/WESTERN"? (as it famously says on the Luminator signs on the Red/Purple Line Breda cars). Or Pico to Crenshaw to Wilshire to Western? Hmmm
Wonder if BBB would run "closed door" east (and north) of Pico/Rimpau, since MTA has that segment covered.
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Post by bzcat on Nov 2, 2010 22:00:03 GMT -8
BBB is starting to receive their new 60 ft NABI "bendy" bus funded by the Stimulus Plan money - I saw two of them sitting in the Colorado Blvd yard last week. I guess we will start seeing them on Pico Blvd soon.
As for the turf war issues... I attended the BBB briefing before Rapid 7 started service and BBB did talk with Metro about going beyond Rimpau to Wilshire/Western. However, there were 2 problems:
1. There is no bus bay at Wilshire/Western so Rapid 7 cannot layover. BBB felt that without layover, it cannot guarantee timing on the inbound service (e.g. buses will bunch big time on the way back to Santa Monica if there is no layover period at turn-around point) 2. With only 40 ft buses in the fleet, the projected ridership with extended route to Wilshire/Western would swamp the buses beyond capacity, especially during morning rush hour. BBB at that time had no plan to order 60 ft buses and would only start service to Wilshire/Western if Metro agree to lease their 60ft NABI buses to BBB. Metro could not do that due to agreement with its union.
The 2nd problem has obviously been addressed now with BBB getting its own fleet of 16 NABI 60ft bendy; but the 1st problem is still not resolved.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 3, 2010 11:33:22 GMT -8
Big Blue Bus needs to re-route their eastern terminus from Pico/Rimpau to Venice/Robertson once the Expo Line to Culver City opens. There's no reason that a Santa Monica municipal line should serve so much of the city of Los Angeles. I know this has to deal with the historical routes of BBB5, BBB7, etc...; but Metro should really focus on LA and BBB on Santa Monica. Metro should extend the 30/730 to Venice/Robertson via Pico and BBB should be the transfer point for the remaining Pico leg to the ocean. Same should be done for BBB5 as Metro 28/728 already serves LA to Century City very well. I think BBB can see some tremendous efficiencies via utilizing a new transit center at Venice/Robertson with Metro rail connections.
Does anybody know if there will be a bus transfer station/layover at Venice/Robertson or at any of the other Expo Line stations? Venice/Robertson just seems to be the perfect transfer point for Culver City transit, BBB, and Metro.
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Post by bzcat on Nov 3, 2010 16:36:45 GMT -8
There is no planned bus bay at Venice/Robertson station but Venice Blvd is wide enough for bus layover. It will require taking a few parking spaces and new curb cut-outs so it can be done. I think BBB Super 12 already does this on layover at the end of its route near Venice/Robertson.
As for Pico bus routing, there is really no simple way to resolve the turf war. If there was, I'm sure Metro and BBB would have came to their senses a long time ago. BBB7 provides a large source of revenue for BBB so they likely will never give up this route. But at the same time, they also do not want to serve the entire length of Pico because that will likely drive up their cost way high. They want their cake and eat it too.
After Expo line opens to Culver Junction, the most likely bus feed demand will be to Westwood and Century City. BBB12 and Super 12 already connect Culver Junction to Westwood so that's all good... I would suggest BBB upgrade Super 12 to Rapid 12 for all-day service rather than just peak hour. In any case, BBB12 and Super 12 will probably become much more important and see ridership skyrocket. This is probably the main reason why BBB ordered 5 more NABI Artic 60ft buses.
The Century City bus feed would be accomplished by rerouting BBB5 to Culver Junction instead of Rimpau. BBB5 and BBB7 already duplicate the portion of Pico from Rimpau to Robertson so there is no big loss if BBB5 stop serving this section of Pico. A direct bus from Culver Junction to Century City will see huge demand. The routing will follow current BBB5 from Downtown Santa Monica via Broadway, Olympic, Constellation, and Olympic again to Robertson Blvd; and go south directly to Culver Junction.
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Post by joshuanickel on Nov 3, 2010 16:59:46 GMT -8
I remember hearing somewhere that metro had given BBB permission to go to wilshire/western but unfortunality, BBB does not have the funding right now.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 3, 2010 17:04:23 GMT -8
The Century City bus feed would be accomplished by rerouting BBB5 to Culver Junction instead of Rimpau. BBB5 and BBB7 already duplicate the portion of Pico from Rimpau to Robertson so there is no big loss if BBB5 stop serving this section of Pico. A direct bus from Culver Junction to Century City will see huge demand. The routing will follow current BBB5 from Downtown Santa Monica via Broadway, Olympic, Constellation, and Olympic again to Robertson Blvd; and go south directly to Culver Junction. I completely agree with BBB5. That's a no-brainer. Hopefully increased frequencies as I do also believe it will become a busier bus line. Also, this route is probably the closest to being identical to the route of Expo Phase II once it goes west from Olympic/Bundy. It will be the Expo Emulator... Also, I cannot recall if Metro went ahead and will cut Metro local route 220 during its December 2010 service enhancements. I think this is the wrong move as the 220 bus as strong potential to be the WeHo to Culver Junction/Expo Line station connection once the Metro rail line is ready. It's hourly service now...but an increase to 20 minute headways once the line is in service will be a good test to see if it's worth running a bus north-south on Robertson to Cedars-Sinai.
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Post by bzcat on Nov 4, 2010 10:47:11 GMT -8
I think 220 is cut so it will be gone soon - just in time for Expo opening next year! Another case of Metro's left hand not talking to the right hand. Culver City is also eliminating their Line 7 which feeds to/from 220 right now on the hourly headway.
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Post by bzcat on Nov 4, 2010 10:48:54 GMT -8
I remember hearing somewhere that metro had given BBB permission to go to wilshire/western but unfortunality, BBB does not have the funding right now. As I mentioned, BBB didn't have the buses to do it AND it didn't have a layover bus bay at Wilshire/Western. It has the buses now (new 60ft buses are being delivered) but the layover issue is still not resolved.
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Post by JerardWright on Nov 4, 2010 12:06:59 GMT -8
I think 220 is cut so it will be gone soon - just in time for Expo opening next year! Another case of Metro's left hand not talking to the right hand. Culver City is also eliminating their Line 7 which feeds to/from 220 right now on the hourly headway. The 220 has not been cut it has been given a reprive, however one thing is very true that a lot of members on this board have overlooked and that is BBB #12 runs more frequently with a lower fare and has more boardings because of it. North of Pico there's very few boardings made there to Cedars Sinai and Beverly Center. Even if the 220 were to improve its headway as was done for a trial basis, it DOES NOT increase the ridership for the corridor.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 4, 2010 12:41:12 GMT -8
The 220 has not been cut it has been given a reprive, however one thing is very true that a lot of members on this board have overlooked and that is BBB #12 runs more frequently with a lower fare and has more boardings because of it. North of Pico there's very few boardings made there to Cedars Sinai and Beverly Center. Even if the 220 were to improve its headway as was done for a trial basis, it DOES NOT increase the ridership for the corridor. The 220 has great potential b/c it is a Metro bus and more riders in LA county have the regular $75 TAP card than they do a BBB pass; or purchase a ticket. With a Metro rail line connection at Robertson...the 220 has potential. I hope Metro waits for the Expo Line before a decision to actually cut it does happen.
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Post by JerardWright on Nov 4, 2010 16:23:15 GMT -8
The 220 has not been cut it has been given a reprive, however one thing is very true that a lot of members on this board have overlooked and that is BBB #12 runs more frequently with a lower fare and has more boardings because of it. North of Pico there's very few boardings made there to Cedars Sinai and Beverly Center. Even if the 220 were to improve its headway as was done for a trial basis, it DOES NOT increase the ridership for the corridor. The 220 has great potential b/c it is a Metro bus and more riders in LA county have the regular $75 TAP card than they do a BBB pass; or purchase a ticket. With a Metro rail line connection at Robertson...the 220 has potential. I hope Metro waits for the Expo Line before a decision to actually cut it does happen. To get to Beverly Center/Cedars off of Expo, riders wouldn't take Robertson, they'll more than likely take the La Cienega Blvd buses which run more frequently and have a longer service span. Robertson corridor would still be served by the BBB #12.
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Post by joshuanickel on Nov 4, 2010 20:27:28 GMT -8
I remember hearing somewhere that metro had given BBB permission to go to wilshire/western but unfortunality, BBB does not have the funding right now. As I mentioned, BBB didn't have the buses to do it AND it didn't have a layover bus bay at Wilshire/Western. It has the buses now (new 60ft buses are being delivered) but the layover issue is still not resolved. But you will need to pay the extra drivers to run the route. Since they are extending it about 2 miles, they will need to add buses to keep the frequency at 10/15 minutes.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Nov 4, 2010 20:45:55 GMT -8
But you will need to pay the extra drivers to run the route. Since they are extending it about 2 miles, they will need to add buses to keep the frequency at 10/15 minutes. If the ridership is worth it......................
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Post by ieko on Nov 4, 2010 22:28:58 GMT -8
Getting 60ft buses was an issue before, but BBB realized that they would save more money by using the articulated buses on the local line instead of the rapid line. So no artics will be used on any rapid line.
As I posted above, BBB is now allowed to go to Wilshire/Western but lacks the resources.
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Post by bzcat on Feb 16, 2011 15:28:17 GMT -8
BBB planning service changes. Looks like they have solved all their problems with extending Rapid 7 to Wilshire/Western! Not sure what route Rapid 10 will take to reduce local running in Downtown LA and West LA/Santa Monica. www.bigbluebus.com/home/index.asp?noticeid=2# More Rapid 7; less local Route 7: Study results indicate more than half of Pico Blvd. riders are choosing to board Rapid 7 buses over local Route 7 buses. As a result, BBB plans to increase Rapid 7 frequency and extend service to the Metro Red Line (Wilshire at Western), which requires a decrease in local Route 7 service frequency. # Convert Express 10 to Rapid 10: Increased street congestion has been slowing this primarily freeway-bound route. To speed this primarily commuter service back up, BBB plans to convert it from a local to a Rapid style service by reducing the number of stops along the route. # Goodbye, Route 13?: Ridership has dropped since both Rapid 7 and local Route 7 duplicate most of this service. Due to low demand and high peak hour cost of operation, BBB plans to discontinue this service to support improvements on more popular services. # Hello, Expo Light Rail!: When, where and how BBB will interface with this new service will be previewed.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 16, 2011 16:20:58 GMT -8
# More Rapid 7; less local Route 7: Study results indicate more than half of Pico Blvd. riders are choosing to board Rapid 7 buses over local Route 7 buses. As a result, BBB plans to increase Rapid 7 frequency and extend service to the Metro Red Line (Wilshire at Western), which requires a decrease in local Route 7 service frequency. # Convert Express 10 to Rapid 10: Increased street congestion has been slowing this primarily freeway-bound route. To speed this primarily commuter service back up, BBB plans to convert it from a local to a Rapid style service by reducing the number of stops along the route. First....it's the Purple Line Wilshire/Western station.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (I hate it when people still refer to it as the Red Line). We have 2 subway lines, not 1! Second...to speed up Rapid 10..easy.....let BBB # 10 use the freeway shoulder. Done.
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Post by bzcat on Feb 16, 2011 17:35:50 GMT -8
I'm going to try to attend one of their meetings to get the real deal but I think they are basically hinting at #10 running as Rapid #10 on Bundy and Santa Monica Blvd instead of local service once it leaves the freeway. And probably terminating at Metro Center in Downtown LA instead of running near Union Station. As is, #10 already skips Union Station so I never quit understand why it spends so much time running locally in Downtown LA. Rapid 10 on Santa Monica Blvd also plugs a key gap in Rapid service as Metro keep reducing frequency of 704 west of Westwood Blvd to the point it is now meaningless. I used to take the 704 from Santa Monica to Century City in the morning but now there is only 1 (ONE!!!) east bound 704 between 8 AM and 9 AM. What kind of "rapid" only offers 1 hourly headway during rush hour
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Post by bobdavis on Feb 16, 2011 19:04:06 GMT -8
And this is one more reason why transit is such a "hard sell"--it brings to mind the comment of a railroad president back in the 1940's: "A hog can cross the country without changing cars, but you can't." He was referring to the "gateways", expecially Chicago, where passengers not only had to change cars, they often had to transfer to a different station. Here in LA we have a transfer station that dates back to the days of wooden streetcars, a point where (as I recall) the city limits were once drawn. When this station was first established, it was probably in the days when Los Angeles had a city ordinance outlawing the shooting of jackrabbits from streetcar platforms. It doesn't take a "Vulcan" to realize that this arrangement is no longer "logical". And regarding a "rapid" line that only runs once an hour--looks like just one more reminder that (according to one survey) less than 5% of Metro employees actually use their company's "product".
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 16, 2011 22:23:29 GMT -8
I used to take the 704 from Santa Monica to Century City in the morning but now there is only 1 (ONE!!!) east bound 704 between 8 AM and 9 AM. What kind of "rapid" only offers 1 hourly headway during rush hour I didn't realize most of the buses stopped at Westwood; I need to update this map of frequent Rapid service: maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=209582850025375035802.00048ff698a913603d036&z=10It's always hard to deal with the Metro vs Muni bus system divide, but they need to decide who is going to run the Rapids on each street, and reduce the number of transfers required. It would be logical for Metro to run all of the rapids... if TAP worked on both systems (including a shared day pass), and if Metro didn't have such high operating costs.
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Post by bzcat on Feb 17, 2011 12:02:45 GMT -8
I used to take the 704 from Santa Monica to Century City in the morning but now there is only 1 (ONE!!!) east bound 704 between 8 AM and 9 AM. What kind of "rapid" only offers 1 hourly headway during rush hour I didn't realize most of the buses stopped at Westwood; I need to update this map of frequent Rapid service: maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=209582850025375035802.00048ff698a913603d036&z=10It's always hard to deal with the Metro vs Muni bus system divide, but they need to decide who is going to run the Rapids on each street, and reduce the number of transfers required. It would be logical for Metro to run all of the rapids... if TAP worked on both systems (including a shared day pass), and if Metro didn't have such high operating costs. This is a good map! Better than Metro's own high frequency map. Good work!
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Post by jeisenbe on Feb 19, 2011 21:00:58 GMT -8
This is a good map! Better than Metro's own high frequency map. Good work! Thanks! But I would say it's different, not better. Metro's map shows every frequent bus or train (now it's limited to those that are better than every 15 minutes). The map I made only shows Rapid (limited stop) buses or trains with frequent service all day. Sadly, that is a much sparser map.
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elray
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by elray on Feb 20, 2011 1:20:38 GMT -8
# More Rapid 7; less local Route 7: Study results indicate more than half of Pico Blvd. riders are choosing to board Rapid 7 buses over local Route 7 buses. As a result, BBB plans to increase Rapid 7 frequency and extend service to the Metro Red Line (Wilshire at Western), which requires a decrease in local Route 7 service frequency. # Convert Express 10 to Rapid 10: Increased street congestion has been slowing this primarily freeway-bound route. To speed this primarily commuter service back up, BBB plans to convert it from a local to a Rapid style service by reducing the number of stops along the route. First....it's the Purple Line Wilshire/Western station.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (I hate it when people still refer to it as the Red Line). We have 2 subway lines, not 1! Second...to speed up Rapid 10..easy.....let BBB # 10 use the freeway shoulder. Done. I ride the #10. The freeway segment is rarely a problem, even at rush hour. The drivers tend to weave a lot to take maximum advantage of flow, including taking the acceleration lanes and through-traffic-exit-ramps. The trouble is on the surface streets, especially Bundy, and sometimes eastbound SM. I don't see how making people walk farther will improve transit times. Maybe Negriff will tell us there is a bus lane planned for Bundy, like the one she promised on Lincoln, so she could declare we have BRT. I'd sure like to see the full detail of what BBB is proposing BEFORE the community meetings, so we could get regular riders informed to show up and weigh in. I wonder who the analyst is who dreamed up this "improvement", and whether he ever rides the line. More people boarding Rapid 7's MAY just indicate that the local 7's are (typically) packed to the rafters. Taking away local coaches ... would not improve service. As for the original thread here, I'm still unhappy - I don't see why Pico riders can't have a single-seat trip from Ocean Avenue to Main Street, But I guess " Rapid 7 to Red Line ;D " is too sexy for BBB to resist instead of serving the peasants.
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Post by LAofAnaheim on Feb 20, 2011 8:27:20 GMT -8
I ride the #10. The freeway segment is rarely a problem, even at rush hour. The drivers tend to weave a lot to take maximum advantage of flow, including taking the acceleration lanes and through-traffic-exit-ramps. The trouble is on the surface streets, especially Bundy, and sometimes eastbound SM. I don't see how making people walk farther will improve transit times. Maybe Negriff will tell us there is a bus lane planned for Bundy, like the one she promised on Lincoln, so she could declare we have BRT. I'd sure like to see the full detail of what BBB is proposing BEFORE the community meetings, so we could get regular riders informed to show up and weigh in. I wonder who the analyst is who dreamed up this "improvement", and whether he ever rides the line. More people boarding Rapid 7's MAY just indicate that the local 7's are (typically) packed to the rafters. Taking away local coaches ... would not improve service. As for the original thread here, I'm still unhappy - I don't see why Pico riders can't have a single-seat trip from Ocean Avenue to Main Street, But I guess " Rapid 7 to Red Line ;D " is too sexy for BBB to resist instead of serving the peasants. As a daily #10 rider, it sucks the bus has to sometimes get off the 10 freeway in order to move faster (they would sometimes take Washignton), whereas, the #10 should have its own passing points. Taking the #10 between 6:45 - 7:50 am from dtla towards Santa Monica, there's hardly any areas for them to weave and take advantage. I cannot see a Bus only lane on Bundy. It's 2 lanes each way. Only a 3 lane street on each side has a possibilty. I can understand the Rapidness of 10 outside of the 10 freeway. There's probably 1 or 2 people who get off on Ohio, Idaho, Yale, Harvard, 18th, 15th, 8th/Olive/Grand, 7th/Hill, etc... I can totally see the local stops eliminated, which I will support. It does slow time travel. Some stops are truly not needed. I hate it when buses stop each and every block (like nearly everly local bus in downtown LA). 2 blocks is not going to kill somebody....people can walk 2 blocks!
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elray
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by elray on Feb 20, 2011 11:14:06 GMT -8
As a daily #10 rider, it sucks the bus has to sometimes get off the 10 freeway in order to move faster (they would sometimes take Washignton), whereas, the #10 should have its own passing points. Taking the #10 between 6:45 - 7:50 am from dtla towards Santa Monica, there's hardly any areas for them to weave and take advantage. I cannot see a Bus only lane on Bundy. It's 2 lanes each way. Only a 3 lane street on each side has a possibilty. I can understand the Rapidness of 10 outside of the 10 freeway. There's probably 1 or 2 people who get off on Ohio, Idaho, Yale, Harvard, 18th, 15th, 8th/Olive/Grand, 7th/Hill, etc... I can totally see the local stops eliminated, which I will support. It does slow time travel. Some stops are truly not needed. I hate it when buses stop each and every block (like nearly everly local bus in downtown LA). 2 blocks is not going to kill somebody....people can walk 2 blocks! Rapids don't short you two blocks. They go for a mile between stops, or more. We suffered for years with non-service on Manchester between Sepulveda and Market (2.5 miles) - a half dozen empty Red buses interspersed by one local that would not stop, for it was too full, and of course, more than half not continuing west of Sepulveda - a gap of 5 miles to Pershing. If we're talking removing a few stops, then that's a short list, and they should have published it. Yes, two blocks won't impact me, or the typical active elderly rider or tourist on the 10. Big Blue is negligent in not publishing their full proposal - you infer two blocks, I see something much worse. Big Blue's Rapid 3 and 7 experiments aren't as egregious as the 715 and 920, but they are still drastically shorting local service without necessarily delivering any added value. A rapid bus stuck on Pico is not significantly faster than a local bus stuck on Pico - and that's why you see six of them at the same stop followed by an hour of no service. I admit I only see the troubles with the 10 and R7 from my somewhat narrow window (the latter, literally, we live on Pico), but I think its legit to question the conclusions based on the R7 study; me thinks the analyst might confuse cause and effect.
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Post by wad on Feb 21, 2011 5:39:35 GMT -8
It has the buses now (new 60ft buses are being delivered) but the layover issue is still not resolved. What's so asinine about it is that Wilshire/Western does have a bus layover lot. It's behind the Solair on Oxford and Sixth. BUT ... Line 710 lays over in the old 6th and Wilton alley, and LADOT's Hollywood/Wilshire DASH must still park on the street. Even who gets to use a bathroom where is governed by a collective bargaining agreement.
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Post by bzcat on May 9, 2011 16:43:29 GMT -8
I saw another BBB 60ft bus doing testing on Pico last week. Was not able to snap a photo but it was bus #5309. NABI BRT style (similar to Metro) 60ft articulated bus painted in Rapid Blue with "TEST" head sign running on what I presume is a simulated Rapid 7 routing to Wilshire/Western. I think they are still doing timing tests to determine headways and how to layover at Wilshire/Western.
BBB is removing the Pico/Beverly stop for Rapid 7 because the curb cutout is not long enough fit a 60ft bus (for reals). So there won't be a Rapid 7 stop between Robertson Blvd and Westwood Blvd... a pretty long stretch. I wrote to BBB and tried to convince them to replace Beverly with either Motor or Ave of The Stars. We'll see if that pans out.
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