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Post by Gokhan on May 26, 2016 14:15:48 GMT -8
First, the brakes were very jerky... You are right that the braking and ATP behavior on Kinkisharyo P3010s is pretty disappointing. They are not as bad as Siemens P2000s but they are nowhere as smooth as Nippon Sharyo P865s when it comes to automatic ATP braking and probably driver braking as well. So, the 1980s drive technology was far better than the 2010s technology. However, the seats are a lot more comfortable on the P3010s -- wider, curved, and more cushioned. Along with their whisper-quite cabin, I think I prefer them despite the jerky drive. I doubt the jerky drive is something that is fixable. I was in another P3010 yesterday and the braking/ATP didn't seem to be jerky. However, they do seem to brake faster than the other cars; so, you need to be careful. |
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Post by Gokhan on May 26, 2016 14:23:33 GMT -8
Kinkisharyo has updated their website of Los Angeles lines using their LRVs to (finally) include Los Angeles. Download the Technical Data PDF for high-resolution drawings of the car in particular (H/T Elson). Very detailed specs, thanks. |
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Post by Gokhan on May 27, 2016 15:22:15 GMT -8
After riding more Kinkisharyo P3010s, the old 1980s Nippon Sharyo P865s are still my favorite. The new Kinkisharyo P3010 cars seem to have cramped interiors and jerky drive technology. I like the old Nippon Sharyo P865s with their simple interiors with ample space and smooth drive technology. The new cars also have smaller windows.
I wonder if Nippon Sharyo stopped making light-rail vehicles because Metro never seemed to have got a bid from them.
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Post by bluelineshawn on May 27, 2016 20:32:09 GMT -8
After riding more Kinkisharyo P3010s, the old 1980s Nippon Sharyo P865s are still my favorite. The new Kinkisharyo P3010 cars seem to have cramped interiors and jerky drive technology. I like the old Nippon Sharyo P865s with their simple interiors with ample space and smooth drive technology. The new cars also have smaller windows. I wonder if Nippon Sharyo stopped making light-rail vehicles because Metro never seemed to have got a bid from them. I really like the P865's as well. They've been workhorses for decades now and still give a good ride. But from my one ride of only one stop I really want the 3010's to be my new favorite. I thought the interior was well designed but I'll have to ride it more like you to formalize an opinion. I didn't notice any jerkiness on my short trip but maybe that can be worked out. I don't know if you recall but the 2550's were very jerky when they first went into service. I was on a few that actually rolled backwards when leaving stations because they were hard for the train operators to operate. But they worked things out mostly. Maybe the 3010's also take some getting use to. |
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Post by TransportationZ on May 28, 2016 12:35:17 GMT -8
I think its a bit too early to tell. Allot of the Kinks still need to worked out. Operators and planners online are complaining about the bugs. These are brand new complex systems with numerous computers that are being pushed to run because of the LRV shortage. The Nippon Sharyos are really gold standard of LRV build quality, and will always be a personal favorite, but I will reserve complete judgement of the P3010s until later. What Kinki has been able to pull off in such a short time is, in my opinion, incredible.
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Post by johanragle on May 31, 2016 13:29:56 GMT -8
I think its a bit too early to tell. Allot of the Kinks still need to worked out. Operators and planners online are complaining about the bugs. These are brand new complex systems with numerous computers that are being pushed to run because of the LRV shortage. The Nippon Sharyos are really gold standard of LRV build quality, and will always be a personal favorite, but I will reserve complete judgement of the P3010s until later. What Kinki has been able to pull off in such a short time is, in my opinion, incredible. Looks like they're more focused on the commuter rail business, judging by their expansion plans. All heavy rail EMU or DMU, no overhead power to be seen. www.n-sharyo.co.jp/topics_e/tp101020.htm |
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Post by darrell on Jun 1, 2016 21:20:58 GMT -8
 Finally, a good view of the P3010's roof! I have more, if anyone would like them. |
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 3, 2016 13:34:26 GMT -8
Nice pics, Darrell. I like it that the pantographs are in the middle in the new cars.
The new cars are very narrow in the center articulated section. The older cars have space for people to put their bicycles and luggage but in the new cars there is only space for two people to pass by. This is another downside of them. I don't know why they cannot make things as good as in the past.
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 11, 2016 15:33:02 GMT -8
The new Kinkisharyo P3010 cars will have so many miles on them before the "break-in" is complete that they will need an overhaul and another break-in before they can go into service.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 11, 2016 19:16:18 GMT -8
The new Kinkisharyo P3010 cars will have so many miles on them before the "break-in" is complete that they will need an overhaul and another break-in before they can go into service. You're normally pretty good with estimates. Have you given one for when they'll have enough train cars to run all 3-car trains at rush? And what about going to 6-minute headways? Is that in the somewhat near future? And as they ramp up new equipment given the choice between 2-car trains at 6-min headways versus 3-car trains at 12-min, I can see that happening as metro doesn't seem to have a problem putting 2-car trains on the blue line (which would likely result due to bunching) even though ridership patterns make the blue line less favorable for 2-car trains compared to expo. |
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Post by masonite on Jun 11, 2016 20:44:42 GMT -8
The new Kinkisharyo P3010 cars will have so many miles on them before the "break-in" is complete that they will need an overhaul and another break-in before they can go into service. You're normally pretty good with estimates. Have you given one for when they'll have enough train cars to run all 3-car trains at rush? And what about going to 6-minute headways? Is that in the somewhat near future? And as they ramp up new equipment given the choice between 2-car trains at 6-min headways versus 3-car trains at 12-min, I can see that happening as metro doesn't seem to have a problem putting 2-car trains on the blue line (which would likely result due to bunching) even though ridership patterns make the blue line less favorable for 2-car trains compared to expo. They should have enough cars now for 3 car trains most of the time and I had heard it was happening to some degree, but on Turs, it sure wasn't. Some problems with the new trains, so who knows. I don't think we'll see 6 minute service until 2018 personally, but that is just my guess. |
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 12, 2016 2:03:04 GMT -8
They should have enough cars now for 3 car trains most of the time and I had heard it was happening to some degree, but on Turs, it sure wasn't. Some problems with the new trains, so who knows. I don't think we'll see 6 minute service until 2018 personally, but that is just my guess. I've never seen them running three-car P3010s after the first week. They have been running the P3010s in two-car sets all the time. The older cars have been running in both two- and three-car sets. So, I don't why they don't run the P3010s in three-car sets. Regarding the problems, they say it's the announcements and head signs. Go figure. You would think that all they have to do is to figure it out on one car and do the same on all others. This reminds me how incompetent they were in fixing the Expo - Blue junction. They spent years and couldn't figure out what was wrong and then they finally hired a consultant, who figured it out immediately. It had also taken them forever to figure out the Phase 1 ATP problems. I don't know why they won't hire a consultant when there is a problem. |
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 12, 2016 2:06:55 GMT -8
You're normally pretty good with estimates. Have you given one for when they'll have enough train cars to run all 3-car trains at rush? And what about going to 6-minute headways? Is that in the somewhat near future? And as they ramp up new equipment given the choice between 2-car trains at 6-min headways versus 3-car trains at 12-min, I can see that happening as metro doesn't seem to have a problem putting 2-car trains on the blue line (which would likely result due to bunching) even though ridership patterns make the blue line less favorable for 2-car trains compared to expo. Total number of cars needed on Expo Line 30 cars + 6 spares needed for 12-minute and 3-car trains 36 + 8 spares for 6-minute and 2-car 54 + 12 spares for 6-minute and 3-car |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 12, 2016 15:38:24 GMT -8
You're normally pretty good with estimates. Have you given one for when they'll have enough train cars to run all 3-car trains at rush? And what about going to 6-minute headways? Is that in the somewhat near future? And as they ramp up new equipment given the choice between 2-car trains at 6-min headways versus 3-car trains at 12-min, I can see that happening as metro doesn't seem to have a problem putting 2-car trains on the blue line (which would likely result due to bunching) even though ridership patterns make the blue line less favorable for 2-car trains compared to expo. Total number of cars needed on Expo Line 30 cars + 6 spares needed for 12-minute and 3-car trains 36 + 8 spares for 6-minute and 2-car 54 + 12 spares for 6-minute and 3-car According to masonite we're pretty close to the 36. Agree? And it looks like we won't see 3-cars at 6-min for awhile. But because of the ridership patterns that may be ok for a few years. We'll have to see. |
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Post by masonite on Jun 12, 2016 17:51:50 GMT -8
Total number of cars needed on Expo Line 30 cars + 6 spares needed for 12-minute and 3-car trains 36 + 8 spares for 6-minute and 2-car 54 + 12 spares for 6-minute and 3-car According to masonite we're pretty close to the 36. Agree? And it looks like we won't see 3-cars at 6-min for awhile. But because of the ridership patterns that may be ok for a few years. We'll have to see. As of Mid-May, Metro said they had 31 and we're getting delivered about one a week. Therefore they probably have about 36, but some of those need to be broken in before they go in service. However, it seems to me that many others are not in service at least temporarily due to problems, because there seems to be less new cars in service as of late. |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 12, 2016 18:40:20 GMT -8
According to masonite we're pretty close to the 36. Agree? And it looks like we won't see 3-cars at 6-min for awhile. But because of the ridership patterns that may be ok for a few years. We'll have to see. As of Mid-May, Metro said they had 31 and we're getting delivered about one a week. Therefore they probably have about 36, but some of those need to be broken in before they go in service. However, it seems to me that many others are not in service at least temporarily due to problems, because there seems to be less new cars in service as of late. Thanks. If metro can get reliable 3-cars/12-min service I think most riders will be happy. They deserve 6-min headways but I understand that may be a year or two away. What I need to check is the planned car distribution. It's been ahwile and despite my username I'm actually a green line rider now. My complaint for the green line is that early morning service levels are terrible. Trains are packed because we still have 10-15 minute headways at times when all other lines are at 6-8 minutes. Metro needs to start 8tph on the green line a whole hour earlier than they do now. |
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Post by masonite on Jun 12, 2016 18:54:01 GMT -8
As of Mid-May, Metro said they had 31 and we're getting delivered about one a week. Therefore they probably have about 36, but some of those need to be broken in before they go in service. However, it seems to me that many others are not in service at least temporarily due to problems, because there seems to be less new cars in service as of late. Thanks. If metro can get reliable 3-cars/12-min service I think most riders will be happy. They deserve 6-min headways but I understand that may be a year or two away. What I need to check is the planned car distribution. It's been ahwile and despite my username I'm actually a green line rider now. My complaint for the green line is that early morning service levels are terrible. Trains are packed because we still have 10-15 minute headways at times when all other lines are at 6-8 minutes. Metro needs to start 8tph on the green line a whole hour earlier than they do now. It is both funny and sad that Metro is having trouble with falling ridership, but it is increasingly having trouble with overcrowded trains. Hopefully, this is temporary. It will really hurt Metro come Nov. if not. 3 car trains at 12 minutes would be tolerable on Expo. Even the other day with the crush load, i was able to snag a seat at Culver City, as new people came on had to stand. Even still it is tough to exit the train with so many standees. |
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 12, 2016 19:08:56 GMT -8
Yeah, people crowd by the doors because they worry if they move down the aisle that it'll be hard to exit through the crowd. The reality is that when it's crowded the dwell time is even longer and everyone has time to exit. That being said I try and stay somewhat close to a door when I know that I'll need to exit when the train is still crowded. Mainly because I know that I usually have about 90 seconds to make my connection to the silver line. A 15 second delay means that I have to run (dangerous) or I may miss my bus. Even though the next bus after is usually 3-5 minutes away it's usually a 910 (not the 950 express) meaning I'll get home 10 min later. Ok that doesn't sound too bad but it keeps me by the doors like everyone else.  |
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Post by Gokhan on Jun 14, 2016 15:09:23 GMT -8
I was on a two-cat P3010 train (all P3010 trains are two-car anyway) yesterday. The automatic station announcements and LED displays inside the trains were showing the wrong stations; so, the opeartor was announcing the stations himself. There was feedback on the microphone and the announcements and a lot of echoes.
Unfortunately, I am disappointed with the P3010 so far. It also seems slow as someone else mentioned.
How is the Breda P2550? I only rode one once. Perhaps they should have kept the Breda contract.
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Post by bluelineshawn on Jun 14, 2016 19:09:29 GMT -8
I was on a two-cat P3010 train (all P3010 trains are two-car anyway) yesterday. The automatic station announcements and LED displays inside the trains were showing the wrong stations; so, the opeartor was announcing the stations himself. There was feedback on the microphone and the announcements and a lot of echoes. Unfortunately, I am disappointed with the P3010 so far. It also seems slow as someone else mentioned. How is the Breda P2550? I only rode one once. Perhaps they should have kept the Breda contract. Noooo! Not the 2550! Haha. I don't ride them all the time but the downside to the 2550's are they are heavy, seats are small, the AC is incredibly loud, and they are difficult to operate. I recall being on several that stalled and at least two that actually rolled backwards because they were so finicky to operate. The seats are uncomfortably narrow for modern size Americans (and I'm not overweight). They also can't run on other lines without an overhaul nor can they be coupled to other models. Let's give the 3010's some time. All of the cars had some break in. In a year I suspect these problems will be a memory and these cars will be the flagship. |
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Post by bzcat on Jun 16, 2016 16:38:06 GMT -8
I'm curious to know if Metro is having these teething problems with P3010 on the Gold line. I don't recall reading anyone experiencing jerky brakes, slow speeds, incorrect stopping points on the platform, or problem with station announcements with P3010 on the Gold line. But those are all recurring issues on the Expo line P3010. Just to recap, these are the recurring problems I've experienced on P3010 on Expo: 1. Jerky brakes 2. Incorrect station announcements (either announcing the wrong Expo stations or announcing Blue line stations) 3. Sticky doors (doors wouldn't open at the stations) 4. Extreme slow traveling speed like below 25mph when it should be flying on the elevated/fenced/gated portion that has no known speed restriction e.g. between Farmdale and La Cienega or between Sepulveda and 17th street 5. Incorrect programming that makes the train stop half way or 3/4 way on the platform On the plus side, the quite AC is really good when the train gets super crowded  |
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Post by bzzzt on Jun 16, 2016 17:16:31 GMT -8
On my Gold Line everyday commute, I don't see the 3010s much. I would guess I get a ride on one about once a week. The last ride I got said it was a test train. On the few times that I have ridden them, I do recall incorrect announcements, but as for the rest, I don't remember that stuff.
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Post by bzcat on Jun 27, 2016 14:30:27 GMT -8
I had few more rides on P3010 last week and the speed has noticeably improved... however, the brakes are still jerky.
On 2 trips, the head sign and station announcements were not working. On one eastbound trip, Metro had employees in every car manually calling out station names as if we are in 1950s. One one west bound trip, the train keep calling out north bound Blue line stations with video board displaying final destination as 7th Street Metro Center despite the train heading towards Santa Monica.
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Post by bobdavis on Nov 18, 2016 23:06:34 GMT -8
Latest arrivals at Monrovia (Divn. 24) 1055 and 1057 were in the yard on Wednesday. Not sure if that's where all of the KS cars are delivered and they will be carted off to Expo after initial testing, or will remain on the Gold Line.
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Post by exporider on Nov 20, 2016 15:42:42 GMT -8
Latest arrivals at Monrovia (Divn. 24) 1055 and 1057 were in the yard on Wednesday. Not sure if that's where all of the KS cars are delivered and they will be carted off to Expo after initial testing, or will remain on the Gold Line. I don't know but my guess is that those new cars will be used on the Gold Line. Metro has already stated, and their LRV Fleet Plan shows that the P3010 vehicles would be used to allow the extension of the Gold and Expo Lines, with 6-minute peak service planned on both routes. The Expo Line has already been upgraded to this service frequency. The Gold Line should be upgraded next. After that, they plan to increase train lengths to 3 cars on the Expo Line (an improvement that isn't warranted by current ridership demand). The LRV Fleet Plan shows that the next round of P3010 vehicles will then be used for the Crenshaw Line. |
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Post by darrell on Jan 15, 2017 12:13:41 GMT -8
A gleaming train of P3010s at Bundy station on 12/24/16:  |
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Post by bzzzt on Jan 16, 2017 8:32:01 GMT -8
It seems like they've got the brake issues fixed on most, if not all, of the new cars.
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Post by bobdavis on Apr 20, 2017 2:03:33 GMT -8
There should be another P-3010 heading your way, Expo-watchers. 1070 was loaded on the special transport trailer at the Div. 24 (Monrovia) loading area (SW corner of the property). I pointed it out to my wife and she asked, "Can't they send it by rail?" and I told her, "in another few years they will, when the connector track that runs by the old Times Mirror parking structure is finished".
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expo
Junior Member
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Post by expo on Jul 12, 2018 8:52:10 GMT -8
Now that the P3010s have been running for ~2 years and had time to get kinks figured out, what does everyone think of them?
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Post by masonite on Jul 12, 2018 13:46:56 GMT -8
Now that the P3010s have been running for ~2 years and had time to get kinks figured out, what does everyone think of them? I have no problems with them. I did notice the last time I took Expo they were still using some of the old Blue Line cars that are now nearly 30 years old. |
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